Mule Team flipping

[DougC-3]

I really like how you're thinking. Way to keep your eye on the ball.

Gordon

Thanks!

[Paulsmp]

How about no Spyderco branding? Plain box, no logo, no hole-nothing to identify the knife as a Spyderco except that it was purchased directly from Spyderco. Ebay buyer beware! I realize Spyderco's brand is incredibly valuable to them, but for the intended purpose of this project, not so much. It has become much more valuable to others.

I love the idea! Whoever purchases from the SFO knows what to get:
An excellent steel and knive! Present for grandpa? Sure, he knows it's coming from me.......
eBay? Resale value? Sorry no Spyderco branding, could be anything.
I would even suggest to not announce the change.
Let the flippers buy 20 of them, and then pay 19 restocking fees (or don't even accept restocking)

Of course I would support any idea, membership, advance payment, whatever..... But for an easy solution? That's it!

[Henry - get both]

I have seen so many preorders go south. People go ape !@#$ with "my money! MY MONEY! They are holding MY money!".

There is no solution. Unless Spyderco makes too big a run the knives are going to be flippable.

The only thing I would recommend to Sal is to risk adding ~5% more knives to whatever formula they are using to determine run size. They don't need to tell us that they are making "extra" knives. Telling us about it would reduce demand. The knives would still be flippable but who really cares as long as everyone with open eyes gets in (including the guy working 80 hour weeks).

[drichardson67]

This obviously is a sticky subject. But I want to be painfully personal and vulnerable on this issue. It is very important to me. I might could be considered a 'flipper' if the only data available was what was easily available online, because I do do buy/sell/trade quite a few knives online. But that would be such a truncated view. I came to the mule teams relatively late. But completely fell in love them. I think the MT 12 or 13 was the first that I bought directly from Spyderco. Everything previous to that I bought on the secondary market. And I bought a crap load of them. And when I say a crap load, I mean a crap load. Probably more than 50 before I was even aware of Spyderco's home page. ( I'm a dumb farmer...not particularly literate when it comes to the world of computers and the internet). But beecause I loved the concept; because I loved the quality, everything about the mules...I was making handles, sharing them with family, friends, and fellow hunters. My 'customized' mule was the perfect gift. I loved fooling around with good...cutting edge...powder steel...and the Mule was what with which I cut my juvenile knife collecting teeth long before I knew much of anything about steel... or knives...or knife collecting....

Ever since then I've bought my 'pair' directly from Spyderco...except for the k390, which I missed out on completely... except for the secondary market. I actually bought 4 on the secondary market. I thought they were worth what I paid for them. And all but one came with Halpern scales to boot. But, alas, no sheath... Again, I happily paid what I thought they were worth to me.

Here's the deal. I love the mules. They're the greatest way to get into a newest steels there is. I buy my two, and buy more on the secondary market if I consider the price to be a good deal. I share them. Buy them. Trade them. Sell them...for me or for my nephews or friends if they need the cash for whatever reason, or if they simply want to move on to the next mule. I actually gave one of my nephews a mule last night. In part because he put down a 100 on my upcoming Wicked Edge purchase.

My nephews aren't old enough to legally 'own' or transact a knife, so I buy/sell/trade that stuff for them in my name. I buy/sell/trade for one old codger friend of mine who is so old school he doesn't even own a computer (he simply appreciates good steel. If he can skin a couple of beefs on one sharpening, he's impressed. And believe me, the Mules impress him...) Another friend who loves knives is a single father with 4 girls under the age of 10. He loves knives, but works in the woods as a logger, and has little spare time to spend on-line figuring out his next knife purchase. He simply trusts me to find his next GRAIL. And sometimes I'm able to. And, frankly, I'd rather him spend his 'free' time being a dad, whilst I knife hunt as an insomniac.

Me. I'm a farmer. I am home, on the farm, most of the time. I can check online at breakfast, at lunch, at night to see what's going on in the world of knives....if I want to and have the time to. And can buy, or sell, or trade, on the behalf of any of us. And in the winter I have a bit more time to do just that. And I do. Usually more selling/trading than buying this time of year because income and employment are harder to come by. But, at least the short days can potentially afford me a little more computer time. Haha. I say potentially... I am so far behind in spraying my fruit trees, cutting firewood, advancing my irrigation system, that I shouldn't even have time to address this issue....


I love knives. I collect knives. I buy knives. I trade knives. I pay for them what they are worth to me. I also sell knives. I traded a ZT 0777m390 and a zt 0560cbcf last week for 4 cases of beer and a hundred dollars. Yea, really good beer. Because I really like good beer... I think I got a good deal. So did my friend.... He likes good knives; I like good beer. Everyone is happy... (Yes, I know that comes to 250/case or 12+ dollars per 12 once bottle, BUT he got a lifetime sharpening agreement for as long as he, or someone local, owns those 2 knives; and I will have good beer in my cellar for the next 8 years...

Knives are tools. Knives are collectibles. Knives are currency. They have inherent value. But their current value is determined, primarily, by supply and demand. Supply and demand is determined by micro and macro-economic factors well beyond the scope of this forum or the micro-economy of knife commoditization. If you disagree; wait until you see what knife prices are once the FED quits pumping money into the National Treasury. The bottom will simply fall out, as it will fall out on everything...But that's another subject...entirely...or, mostly...

Spyderco could possibly produce more mules. And more directly to the point...

If Sal were to consult with me, in this context, I'd simply say 'produce more'--especially those with really high end steel...because...duh...the demand will be greater. And charge enough to make it worth your while, worth while for Spyderco. Ask me, I'll tell you how many to produce. The market could have easily handled 1400 of the s110v and the k390 mules...at 110.00 bucks a pop.

As for the next cpm 4v mule...that's where Spyderco needs to shoot: 1400 @ 110 bucks a piece. Problems may not be entirely solved, but they will certainly be ameliorated.

In any case, there won't be near as much occasion for complaining.

If you want one directly from Spyderco, you can get one... or two....

I love the mule team concept. It has worked for me wonderfully. I literally can't get enough of them. I can't wait for the next edition. I have been willing to pay primary or secondary market prices for ALL of my mules. And I will always pay what I believe a knife is worth to me. THAT'S just me...

I got my 2 s110v mules this time around directly. I've already paid for another on the secondary market. And was happy to pay that price. I think the k390 mule is the ****. But why not have an extra s110v mule if you're lucky enough, and willing enough, to pay the extra to grab one on the secondary market??? I have many nephews, after all...

Sal...just produce more. Seriously.

I say the more knives of high end steel in circulation the better. Because I f#$%king love kick *** steel....


In short...just produce more, especially if you're dealing with really high end steel. If you have too many extra...I'll take them...all of them!!!! I'll PM you my CC and my shipping address straight away...

OK, so that's my feelings on the matter on scalping or whatever it's called.

Here's what I think:

If Spyderco were to have produced 1400 s110v mules at 110 bucks, what would Spycerco have had to loose???

(They would all sell eventually, and likely pretty fast=more items, and at a higher profit margin for Spyderco. Who's not in favor of that?)


And who would be complaining??? :o (All of us knife knuts would have ample opportunity for one...or even two...)''

Really, it's not rocket science....

Listen, I know Spyderco produces these mules, not for profit, but as a gesture of friendship and appreciation to those die-hard steel junkies among us who can't wait for the next powder steel fix. It is a tremendous gesture. Spyderco, and we, get to 'break in' these steels together. Together, we are the advanced research team, providing feedback on HT, edge geometry, wear resistance; all those thing we talk about in a blade. I think that is the point of the Mule Team experiment... It is the most fundamental and organic and symbiotic connection, the expression of that connection, possible between user and producer. The mule team, in the end, is an invitation to a conversation about steel on the cutting edge.

When the discussion turns to issues of scarcity, and to the market implications thereof, the real question should be: why not simply eliminate scarcity? Just produce some more? Add to the conversation? That's what the Mule Team project is about, right???

There's enough of us knife knuts out here to buy them up. And Spyderco should not feel bad about charging a little more for them so that at the very least it's worth their while financially to keep blessing us with these gifts, invitations to further conversation.

I'll pay what a knife is worth to me. Period. But I am willing to pay extra to remain a part of this conversation. And I would willingly pay extra for Spyderco to risk over pricing AND over producing, just so that everyone is happy, and so that everyone who desires to enjoin this conversation is able to do so.

Keep them coming, Sal. The more, the better... And if you need help setting up a scheme to balance cost, price, with projected demand...JUST ASK.

It's an easy answer: make a few more... charge a little more if you need to. Even the most impoverished among us could at least afford one at Spyderco pricing.

Doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

[jtoler_9]

If someone is in it just to flip mules they aren't one of us and shouldn't be allowed access to the mules.
Get the names we can now and make examples of them.
They deserve what they get.
It's the guys with 4 or 5 that need to have their heads put on a virtual pike on the sides of the main roads coming into town ( Golden, CO., Earth) and made examples of.

Start checking the IP addresses, card numbers and see if E bay can help on this one too. That will get the worst of the offenders.

Yea, maybe Spyderco can work with the NSA to keep track of all web activity from people that buy mules. We can also see what other websites these scum bags are looking at. If they are bad websites, they are definatley not "one of us" and should be cast out. We should create a standards list in a sticky thread showing the characteristics needed to be part of the club. If you break these rules, we break your face.
If they flip a knife, we can go after their family after we put their heads on a virtual pike. Call family protective services and let them know that these horrible people with no honor shouldn't have kids. Let's make examples of the people we don't like. Create a watchdog like website where we can broadcast their identities so people can avoid them in the future. This will definatley solve our problems so that we can all have another knife in our collection. Seems like a reasonable solution and punishment for such an agregous crime.

[boonedawg]

Just got into the mules this last round and wish i'd have gotten one of the 390's a super blue and a damascus. These blades if made in an orderly rotation would to me be brilliant. You could have thousands of new customers just waiting to get in on the awesome knife his buddy showed him. In the meanwhile while they are waiting on the release...checking back on the web and such would be buying spyderco knives. I mean really, if they are knife dudes, they will not be able to resist. I agree with making a bit more though. I just wish i'd have gotten to the party a lot sooner. I wouldn't pay the flipper price for one...I either get it from SFO or i don't get one.

[rakr]

Hi Guys,

I'm new to the forum but have been reading here for almost a year now. Really enjoy the people, comments and info here, absolutely love the knives.

Anyways, thinking about trying to keep this process as simple for Spyderco, what about having the shipping dept. add a 2D matrix sticker next to the original bar code that identifies the unique order # of each Mule Team knife? That would identify who ordered these knifes in the first place, then remove those buyer's eligibility for future purchases.

Of course the pictures of the bar code or 2D matrix sticker would have to be shown to identify, but most auctions/sales I've seen include these pics anyways.

Call it the Spyderco Authentication Code or something similar, that way it may preclude flippers from blurring it out on eBay and such.

Or, add additional bar coding to the original code the shows the order # within it.

Ideally, you want to remove the multiple knife flipper-profiteer, not the occasional seller, nor make it more difficult, or more expensive, for the folks that really want these.

Feel free to punch holes in my idea, I know nothing about bar codes or 2D matrix symbols.

Randy

[Tally-ho]

Raising the price is a "great" idea folks.

I live in France and for the last 2 mules (1 for me + 1 for a friend) I paid a total of 211,22€ (ordered from the SFO (45$ for shipping + 26€ for my country taxes (20% of the items price) + 15€ for customs (fixed) fees for paper works). That is 300$ if converted with today average exchange rate market. In reality it is more than 300$ because your bank exchange rate is higher + bank exchange fees.

So if Spyderco will listen to you and decide to raise the price, I hope they will do it for US buyers only. Thanks !

[DougC-3]

Lots of food for thought in the above posts ^^^ but I'm going to go ahead and post this while I ruminate on the info above:

I have seen so many preorders go south. People go ape !@#$ with "my money! MY MONEY! They are holding MY money!".

There is no solution. Unless Spyderco makes too big a run the knives are going to be flippable.

The only thing I would recommend to Sal is to risk adding ~5% more knives to whatever formula they are using to determine run size. They don't need to tell us that they are making "extra" knives. Telling us about it would reduce demand. The knives would still be flippable but who really cares as long as everyone with open eyes gets in (including the guy working 80 hour weeks).

Admittedly, I haven't been around long enough to see preorders "blow up" or "go south." I would have thought that that could be handled by wording in the preorder agreement... "If you still don't have your knife a year after the prospective date, you can, if you're dumb and impatient enough, opt out and get your money back, but you must enclose a note from your mother" Just kidding!! :D I know this is a serious subject.

Seriously, maybe this could be handled in the preorder agreement. Maybe there could be an opt out clause if the, hopefully, very generous delivery time is exceeded.

It looks like a combination of approaches may be in order, maybe including Spyderco increasing production as much as practical and at their discretion holding back as many knives as they see fit.

I don't see anything wrong with a mule collector's club, to insure that the members get their mules. And I would join it, but I don't think it should be exclusive. Non members should have a shot at any given mule, as is the case with the current collector's club.

[alanzheng]

How about no Spyderco branding? Plain box, no logo, no hole-nothing to identify the knife as a Spyderco except that it was purchased directly from Spyderco. Ebay buyer beware! I realize Spyderco's brand is incredibly valuable to them, but for the intended purpose of this project, not so much. It has become much more valuable to others.

This is a good idea.
Increasing price won't stop the flipping.

[Evil D]

I think I finally figured out the solution.


Remove the 2 per person limit, and when they go on sale, I'm gonna buy 600 of them. Then everyone can contact ME one on one, personally, over the phone, and I'll sell them at cost. Problem solved

[Tally-ho]

Increasing price won't stop the flipping.

Exactly, it will only increase the price on ebay.

[fanglekai]

I didn't read all the posts so this might have been suggested already. It seems to me that the desirability is because of the scarcity of knives with the steels used. Why not release production fixed blades in the same steels? Sell them for profit. People want the steels and they'll sell. The mules can come first to gauge interest then Spyderco can make retail versions in the hot steels.

[Prospero]

I like the idea of opening a pay-in-full pre-order several months in advance. True flippers might not want to tie up monies for that long and might not be as willing to acquire as many knives knowing that a large part of the final demand is being accounted for up-front by Spyderco. Also, this method would give Spyderco a better idea of how many units to produce prior to actual production beginning. As other mentioned above, the true afis will get their knives in the end (and I'm sure wouldn't mind the wait).

[JNewell]

What these conversations inevitably and unfailingly fail to take account of is this: not every sprint, not every Mule, is a runaway sell-out sales rocket. Some sprints and some Mules linger for long periods. Some linger so long that they have been let go at firesale prices by Spyderco. It seems easy to predict ahead of time, but in real life, it doesn't work that way. What Spyderco, and ultimately each of us, has to lose is: the whole project. If Spyderco needs to deal with sticky inventory, given their scarce resources, they will simply redirect resources to safer, more economically reliable products.

So it really isn't easy, and it really isn't risk free.

This obviously is a sticky subject. But I want to be painfully personal and vulnerable on this issue. It is very important to me. I might could be considered a 'flipper' if the only data available was what was easily available online, because I do do buy/sell/trade quite a few knives online. But that would be such a truncated view. I came to the mule teams relatively late. But completely fell in love them. I think the MT 12 or 13 was the first that I bought directly from Spyderco. Everything previous to that I bought on the secondary market. And I bought a crap load of them. And when I say a crap load, I mean a crap load. Probably more than 50 before I was even aware of Spyderco's home page. ( I'm a dumb farmer...not particularly literate when it comes to the world of computers and the internet). But beecause I loved the concept; because I loved the quality, everything about the mules...I was making handles, sharing them with family, friends, and fellow hunters. My 'customized' mule was the perfect gift. I loved fooling around with good...cutting edge...powder steel...and the Mule was what with which I cut my juvenile knife collecting teeth long before I knew much of anything about steel... or knives...or knife collecting....

Ever since then I've bought my 'pair' directly from Spyderco...except for the k390, which I missed out on completely... except for the secondary market. I actually bought 4 on the secondary market. I thought they were worth what I paid for them. And all but one came with Halpern scales to boot. But, alas, no sheath... Again, I happily paid what I thought they were worth to me.

Here's the deal. I love the mules. They're the greatest way to get into a newest steels there is. I buy my two, and buy more on the secondary market if I consider the price to be a good deal. I share them. Buy them. Trade them. Sell them...for me or for my nephews or friends if they need the cash for whatever reason, or if they simply want to move on to the next mule. I actually gave one of my nephews a mule last night. In part because he put down a 100 on my upcoming Wicked Edge purchase.

My nephews aren't old enough to legally 'own' or transact a knife, so I buy/sell/trade that stuff for them in my name. I buy/sell/trade for one old codger friend of mine who is so old school he doesn't even own a computer (he simply appreciates good steel. If he can skin a couple of beefs on one sharpening, he's impressed. And believe me, the Mules impress him...) Another friend who loves knives is a single father with 4 girls under the age of 10. He loves knives, but works in the woods as a logger, and has little spare time to spend on-line figuring out his next knife purchase. He simply trusts me to find his next GRAIL. And sometimes I'm able to. And, frankly, I'd rather him spend his 'free' time being a dad, whilst I knife hunt as an insomniac.

Me. I'm a farmer. I am home, on the farm, most of the time. I can check online at breakfast, at lunch, at night to see what's going on in the world of knives....if I want to and have the time to. And can buy, or sell, or trade, on the behalf of any of us. And in the winter I have a bit more time to do just that. And I do. Usually more selling/trading than buying this time of year because income and employment are harder to come by. But, at least the short days can potentially afford me a little more computer time. Haha. I say potentially... I am so far behind in spraying my fruit trees, cutting firewood, advancing my irrigation system, that I shouldn't even have time to address this issue....


I love knives. I collect knives. I buy knives. I trade knives. I pay for them what they are worth to me. I also sell knives. I traded a ZT 0777m390 and a zt 0560cbcf last week for 4 cases of beer and a hundred dollars. Yea, really good beer. Because I really like good beer... I think I got a good deal. So did my friend.... He likes good knives; I like good beer. Everyone is happy... (Yes, I know that comes to 250/case or 12+ dollars per 12 once bottle, BUT he got a lifetime sharpening agreement for as long as he, or someone local, owns those 2 knives; and I will have good beer in my cellar for the next 8 years...

Knives are tools. Knives are collectibles. Knives are currency. They have inherent value. But their current value is determined, primarily, by supply and demand. Supply and demand is determined by micro and macro-economic factors well beyond the scope of this forum or the micro-economy of knife commoditization. If you disagree; wait until you see what knife prices are once the FED quits pumping money into the National Treasury. The bottom will simply fall out, as it will fall out on everything...But that's another subject...entirely...or, mostly...

Spyderco could possibly produce more mules. And more directly to the point...

If Sal were to consult with me, in this context, I'd simply say 'produce more'--especially those with really high end steel...because...duh...the demand will be greater. And charge enough to make it worth your while, worth while for Spyderco. Ask me, I'll tell you how many to produce. The market could have easily handled 1400 of the s110v and the k390 mules...at 110.00 bucks a pop.

As for the next cpm 4v mule...that's where Spyderco needs to shoot: 1400 @ 110 bucks a piece. Problems may not be entirely solved, but they will certainly be ameliorated.

In any case, there won't be near as much occasion for complaining.

If you want one directly from Spyderco, you can get one... or two....

I love the mule team concept. It has worked for me wonderfully. I literally can't get enough of them. I can't wait for the next edition. I have been willing to pay primary or secondary market prices for ALL of my mules. And I will always pay what I believe a knife is worth to me. THAT'S just me...

I got my 2 s110v mules this time around directly. I've already paid for another on the secondary market. And was happy to pay that price. I think the k390 mule is the ****. But why not have an extra s110v mule if you're lucky enough, and willing enough, to pay the extra to grab one on the secondary market??? I have many nephews, after all...

Sal...just produce more. Seriously.

I say the more knives of high end steel in circulation the better. Because I f#$%king love kick *** steel....


In short...just produce more, especially if you're dealing with really high end steel. If you have too many extra...I'll take them...all of them!!!! I'll PM you my CC and my shipping address straight away...

OK, so that's my feelings on the matter on scalping or whatever it's called.

Here's what I think:

If Spyderco were to have produced 1400 s110v mules at 110 bucks, what would Spycerco have had to loose???

(They would all sell eventually, and likely pretty fast=more items, and at a higher profit margin for Spyderco. Who's not in favor of that?)


And who would be complaining??? :o (All of us knife knuts would have ample opportunity for one...or even two...)''

Really, it's not rocket science....

Listen, I know Spyderco produces these mules, not for profit, but as a gesture of friendship and appreciation to those die-hard steel junkies among us who can't wait for the next powder steel fix. It is a tremendous gesture. Spyderco, and we, get to 'break in' these steels together. Together, we are the advanced research team, providing feedback on HT, edge geometry, wear resistance; all those thing we talk about in a blade. I think that is the point of the Mule Team experiment... It is the most fundamental and organic and symbiotic connection, the expression of that connection, possible between user and producer. The mule team, in the end, is an invitation to a conversation about steel on the cutting edge.

When the discussion turns to issues of scarcity, and to the market implications thereof, the real question should be: why not simply eliminate scarcity? Just produce some more? Add to the conversation? That's what the Mule Team project is about, right???

There's enough of us knife knuts out here to buy them up. And Spyderco should not feel bad about charging a little more for them so that at the very least it's worth their while financially to keep blessing us with these gifts, invitations to further conversation.

I'll pay what a knife is worth to me. Period. But I am willing to pay extra to remain a part of this conversation. And I would willingly pay extra for Spyderco to risk over pricing AND over producing, just so that everyone is happy, and so that everyone who desires to enjoin this conversation is able to do so.

Keep them coming, Sal. The more, the better... And if you need help setting up a scheme to balance cost, price, with projected demand...JUST ASK.

It's an easy answer: make a few more... charge a little more if you need to. Even the most impoverished among us could at least afford one at Spyderco pricing.

Doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

[JNewell]

The idea is that, if all the "right" people preorder, then all the right people have scored their knife (or two). If every one of us has has his or her knife, then what do we care if some of the "wrong" people get a few to sell to rich collectors or late comers? If we're effective enough at getting one to all the "right" people with preorders, then the would-be flippers may wind up eating some mules :)

Edit: this would have to be done long in advance so the production number could be adjusted to accommodate all preorderers.

I think a pre-order concept could work, but if it were to have a chance at working, I think it would have to be paid in full, and well ahead of time. The reason speculators are in this is for a quick buck. If they have to tie up cash for half a dozen or more knives for months ahead of time, they'll find other property to flip. But $20 or 20% up front won't change their behavior - it needs to be paid in full.

[gaj999]

OK Here's another random thought. Spyderco makes extra Mules, doesn't say how many, and then auctions them off over an unspecified amount of time on their website. That adds uncertainty as to how profitable it's going to be to flip a knife. Right now, if it's a hot steel, the profit is certain and quick. Make it uncertain and slow and much of the incentive to flip goes away. As a complete aside - this might be a good way to unload the factory seconds as well. Maybe it would even bring in enough income to pay the salary of the person needed to run the program.

Gordon

[Prospero]

I think a pre-order concept could work, but if it were to have a chance at working, I think it would have to be paid in full, and well ahead of time. The reason speculators are in this is for a quick buck. If they have to tie up cash for half a dozen or more knives for months ahead of time, they'll find other property to flip. But $20 or 20% up front won't change their behavior - it needs to be paid in full.

Agreed. I also wouldn't mind paying a little more, especially for these hot steels. Spyderco deserves to make something off these for spoiling us so completely. :rolleyes:

[ManixFan]

A new idea?.......Sort of.

Market forces such as supply and demand will always dictate pricing.....especially secondary market pricing.
If a run can sell out 1400 then why not let it? The problem is always predicting the demand so that you aren't later stuck with inventory on hand that ties up your own capital that could have been put to better use on other projects (say an S110V Domino in same scale format of blue CF version - with same or new colour).

So why not develop price points for different sized runs and then after the initial run offer further releases of the same Mule Team in the future based on what the demand actually IS ....rather than what was forecast.

Eg. Initial run goes forward as is........700 made and sold out quickly

Spyderco accepts the names of people (and % deposit) interested in purchasing various high demand mules over an set period of time (1 to 2 years) and at the end of that period or when it reaches a certain profitable/solvency threshold tallies up the "demand" and does the math for what price they would have to sell each mule at for smaller runs. Perhaps a subsequent run of 350-400 might raise the initial $90 offering to $110 & $120.

But the foreknowledge that a popular demand MT release will be re-release when enough demand has been authenticated to justify such a re-release would probably keep a LOT of the people buying from the 2ndry market away from such a purchase. This would also mean that the "demand" would accumulate more quickly and the re-release occur that much more quickly .......whenever the "magic number" is reached where solvency is ensured at a price that people are willing to pay.

If only 100 people indicate an interest in a re-release and it works out that in order to do that the new price would have to be $200 per piece then there is no point in proceeding if doing so results in a lot of extra work at Spyderco with little profit. In that case the demand isn't high enough to justify a re-release and subsequently the demand on ebay is going to reflect this situation and those 100 people will likely not have to pay $200-$300 for their desired mule on the 2ndry market.

But the potential for high demand releases to be re-released is what will kill the speculators on these higher demand blades since this is where they can potentially jack their prices the highest and still get people to take their bait. People will at hold off for at least 6 mos to a year (or even 2) while the "post-orders" to the initial runs are being taken to see whether enough demand exists to re-run the release. This 6mos to a year cooling off period where MT fans are waiting to see the viability of a re-release will also have the effect of having 2ndry sellers having to sit on their "investments" for that much longer and since the demand has cooled for the 2ndry market - the interim prices should come down quite a bit for those truly impatient people who can't wait another year or two for a re-release.

Spyderco could even post the amount of people committed to purchasing a prior Mule run - say poll people's top three or four wishes in order of preference of prior mule releases and then go with the top three prior mules that people are clamoring for and then post the number of committed orders (as indicated by deposit). When the numbers reach the minimum limits for a re-release then announce the re-release of whatever former MT release is in demand and allow another 3 months to place orders to flesh out the total "demand". Also - the drive for a re-release can also gain momentum this way since if people who want at least one extra MT see the viability for a re-release hovering at about 79% it wouldn't take too many people within that crowd who were contemplating a purchase of 2 mules to call Spyderco back and increase their purchase commitment to 2 blades - if that is what it takes to guarantee the re-release of their heart's desire.

I also don't suggest that Spyderco re-release all former MT's - a lot of them are simply not in enough demand and the 2ndry market prices should reflect this for those that really want a certain MT. But if there is a potential for re-releasing the highest demand releases then this should cool the ability of the secondary market to gouge Spyderco end users.

I guess you can tell that I would like some prior MT releases - which I don't think that I would be alone in desiring since a lot of people enter or come across the mule program at different times. Someone coming in to the MT program in 2 years from now at MT 20+ if they see an pre-ordering program in place for former MT's would jump at the chance to place an order for a re-release of MT-18. Also those who currently own MT-18 and love it and would like to purchase others to create gifts for family and friends would have an opportunity to get additional blades at reasonable prices without rewarding the evil, Satan worshiping ebayers :D or taking blades out of the hands of those that just wanted 1 for their personal use in the original release.

Again - I don't know how feasible re-releasing MT's would be as I'm not a Spyderco accountant but I just wanted to illustrate a framework by which such a re-release might occur.

[JNewell]

Maybe there isn't any problem worth fixing here? If the estimates above that 1.6% of the knives have shown up on eBay, maybe the problem isn't worth devoting time and resources to fixing? Say that 1.6% is too low because it doesn't capture all venues and all sales - so double it, and you only have roughly 3% of the run being flipped. No matter how offensive it is to see someone with six of these, maybe that just isn't worth tying Spyderco and ourselves up in knots over.

Edit: I just did a quick survey at eBay and found 20 sold or for sale S110V mules, which would amount to roughly 3.3%, which is still a pretty small number of knives. I think there may well be a question of proportionality here.