Get me excited about M398

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Steeltoez83
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Re: Get me excited about M398

#101

Post by Steeltoez83 »

I've only used my green dmt bench stone a few times. Overall I didn't like it. I felt the edge was regressing instead of progressing. The stone needed more time to break in. In the future if I decide to test those waters I'd just avoid the red/600 and just go from the blue 325 to the green 1200. And evaluate after 8 or so knives. Now my sharpness standard after a 600 dmt is jagged draw cuts thru paper towel. I am sure with a series of strops I can refine the apex to get push cutting on newsprint. But I chose coated diamond over my vitrified stuff to match the 32% carbide volume in m398. So it's my preference to leave the edge at a working finish instead of an ego one. The coated dmt stones leave deep scratches whereas the gritomatic stuff cuts more homogenous and less deep. I usually tell folks dmt edges are like driving over roads with an abundance of potholes. And the gritomatic diamond stuff is more like freshly paved roads.
"Nothing is built on stone; all is built on sand, but we must build as if the sand were stone."
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JoviAl
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Re: Get me excited about M398

#102

Post by JoviAl »

I see a lot of folk on here are getting wicked edges on their M398. I don’t know why (it’s not my first rodeo and I sharpen all manner of steels all the time) but my M398 is not getting anywhere like as sharp as my Magnacut/K390/Cruwear/20CV. It seems to get a nice burr on a 140 diamond plate but then keeping it up through the grits is proving extremely troublesome. It’s not blunt by any measure, but it’s nothing like as sharp as I normally get knives (It barely shaves, never mind tree tops hairs which I usually gun for).

I’m currently going 140, 300, 600, 1500 grit diamond plates with edge leading strokes, then stropping on kangaroo leather at 2, 0.5 and 0.1 micron diamond pastes.

Any advice for a brother in need?
- Al

Work: Jumpmaster 2

Home: DF2 K390 Wharncliffe/DF2 Salt H1 SE and K390 Police 4 LW SE/15V Shaman

Dream knives -
Chinook in Magnacut (any era)
Manix 2 XL Salt in Magnacut
A larger Rockjumper in Magnacut SE
VandymanG
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Location: Yelm, WA

Re: Get me excited about M398

#103

Post by VandymanG »

JoviAl wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:38 pm
I see a lot of folk on here are getting wicked edges on their M398. I don’t know why (it’s not my first rodeo and I sharpen all manner of steels all the time) but my M398 is not getting anywhere like as sharp as my Magnacut/K390/Cruwear/20CV. It seems to get a nice burr on a 140 diamond plate but then keeping it up through the grits is proving extremely troublesome. It’s not blunt by any measure, but it’s nothing like as sharp as I normally get knives (It barely shaves, never mind tree tops hairs which I usually gun for).

I’m currently going 140, 300, 600, 1500 grit diamond plates with edge leading strokes, then stropping on kangaroo leather at 2, 0.5 and 0.1 micron diamond pastes.

Any advice for a brother in need?

Hi JoviAl,

The mule I got would not keep its edge Initially. I talked to a friend of mine who makes his own knives and he thought it might be one of two things. One suggestion he had is some knives need to be work hardened. If so, this wasn’t the case with mine.

The other suggestion he made was that some knives need to be sharpened several times to get rid of the soft outer or hard brittle portion of the blade. Mine initially would dull real easily and seemed to be soft. After sharpening it several times it finally held a very sharp edge.

Due to the above issue he told me that one of the super/premium steels had fallen out of favor. It had gotten a bad rap because of this issue. A highly regarded knife maker let the customers know that the knives made of the steel (can’t remember which one, might be elmax) had a soft outer blade but they would find the hard edge after sharpening the outer layer off. The knives sold poorly and the metal got a bad rap. Since then he said knife makers don’t advertise this. Not sure of the story but my mule was soft and it got harder as I worked on it.

He told me to just sharpen it when it got dull and it would eventually hold an edge. He was right.

I’m very new to this so you might want to wait until some of the veterans/legends that are a part of the forum weigh in on the subject.

Hope this helps???
Greg

* EDC> PM2 - S45VN & CRUWEAR, Native - CRUWEAR, Rockjumper - VG 10
Temporarily put my mule away cause I got tired of my wife saying do you really need 5 knives on you. MULE - AEB-L (keep returning to this mule cause it’s awesome)
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JoviAl
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Re: Get me excited about M398

#104

Post by JoviAl »

VandymanG wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:14 am
JoviAl wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:38 pm
I see a lot of folk on here are getting wicked edges on their M398. I don’t know why (it’s not my first rodeo and I sharpen all manner of steels all the time) but my M398 is not getting anywhere like as sharp as my Magnacut/K390/Cruwear/20CV. It seems to get a nice burr on a 140 diamond plate but then keeping it up through the grits is proving extremely troublesome. It’s not blunt by any measure, but it’s nothing like as sharp as I normally get knives (It barely shaves, never mind tree tops hairs which I usually gun for).

I’m currently going 140, 300, 600, 1500 grit diamond plates with edge leading strokes, then stropping on kangaroo leather at 2, 0.5 and 0.1 micron diamond pastes.

Any advice for a brother in need?

Hi JoviAl,

The mule I got would not keep its edge Initially. I talked to a friend of mine who makes his own knives and he thought it might be one of two things. One suggestion he had is some knives need to be work hardened. If so, this wasn’t the case with mine.

The other suggestion he made was that some knives need to be sharpened several times to get rid of the soft outer or hard brittle portion of the blade. Mine initially would dull real easily and seemed to be soft. After sharpening it several times it finally held a very sharp edge.

Due to the above issue he told me that one of the super/premium steels had fallen out of favor. It had gotten a bad rap because of this issue. A highly regarded knife maker let the customers know that the knives made of the steel (can’t remember which one, might be elmax) had a soft outer blade but they would find the hard edge after sharpening the outer layer off. The knives sold poorly and the metal got a bad rap. Since then he said knife makers don’t advertise this. Not sure of the story but my mule was soft and it got harder as I worked on it.

He told me to just sharpen it when it got dull and it would eventually hold an edge. He was right.

I’m very new to this so you might want to wait until some of the veterans/legends that are a part of the forum weigh in on the subject.

Hope this helps???
Cheers Greg, I’ve had knives in the past that have been initially glassy then improved over several sharpenings. This M398 mule seems to just produce powder metal rather than burring up nicely - I’ve sharpened it about 8 times now. I’m at a bit of a loss 🤷🏼‍♂️ It’s not a major issue, I’ve got loads of other knives, I just wondered if anyone else had experienced and overcome a similar issue.
- Al

Work: Jumpmaster 2

Home: DF2 K390 Wharncliffe/DF2 Salt H1 SE and K390 Police 4 LW SE/15V Shaman

Dream knives -
Chinook in Magnacut (any era)
Manix 2 XL Salt in Magnacut
A larger Rockjumper in Magnacut SE
VandymanG
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Location: Yelm, WA

Re: Get me excited about M398

#105

Post by VandymanG »

Oh wow sorry to hear that. It only took me two times going through the whole sharpening process before I got a quality edge. Must be frustrating. Hope it works out for you.
Greg

* EDC> PM2 - S45VN & CRUWEAR, Native - CRUWEAR, Rockjumper - VG 10
Temporarily put my mule away cause I got tired of my wife saying do you really need 5 knives on you. MULE - AEB-L (keep returning to this mule cause it’s awesome)
TTFulltimer
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Re: Get me excited about M398

#106

Post by TTFulltimer »

IMHO burrs when sharpening are not going to happen on hard steels. A steel that sharpens without burrs is my preference. I know it is hard enough not to deform with the miniscule amount of pressure one applies when sharpening.
Just a crotchety old curmudgeon who has seen a thing or two
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JoviAl
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Re: Get me excited about M398

#107

Post by JoviAl »

TTFulltimer wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:56 am
IMHO burrs when sharpening are not going to happen on hard steels. A steel that sharpens without burrs is my preference. I know it is hard enough not to deform with the miniscule amount of pressure one applies when sharpening.
You may well be onto something there - I know it is lauded for its edge retentive qualities, but when I do manage to raise a burr on one side it drops straight off when I work the other side of the blade. I’ve even tried just floating the blade along the stone with zero pressure and it’s dropping straight off 🤷🏼‍♂️ I wonder if the edge has just work hardened a bit more that usual during original sharpening and I need to get through that layer of glassy steel 🤔

Anyhow, not the end of the world or anything, just airing my thoughts in case there was a solution I was missing. I’ll give it a few more full sharpenings and see if there’s any improvement, as the edge I’m getting from all this powdery ground steel is average at best.
- Al

Work: Jumpmaster 2

Home: DF2 K390 Wharncliffe/DF2 Salt H1 SE and K390 Police 4 LW SE/15V Shaman

Dream knives -
Chinook in Magnacut (any era)
Manix 2 XL Salt in Magnacut
A larger Rockjumper in Magnacut SE
Steeltoez83
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Re: Get me excited about M398

#108

Post by Steeltoez83 »

just curious here- but are you flipping the burr before moving to the next stone or are you just removing it before switching stones? I normally want a burr free edge by the second stone in my progression. Im currently using a dmt coarse/fine diafold as my progression. And being able to slice paper towel on a draw is what I get at 600.
"Nothing is built on stone; all is built on sand, but we must build as if the sand were stone."
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JoviAl
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Re: Get me excited about M398

#109

Post by JoviAl »

Steeltoez83 wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:37 pm
just curious here- but are you flipping the burr before moving to the next stone or are you just removing it before switching stones? I normally want a burr free edge by the second stone in my progression. Im currently using a dmt coarse/fine diafold as my progression. And being able to slice paper towel on a draw is what I get at 600.
I’m trying to maintain a gradually weakening burr throughout my entire stone progression until I move to stropping. I’m aiming for (and usually achieving) at least hair popping sharp if not hair whittling sharp (some steels are easier than others to get hair whittling in my experience, such as S90V, Cruwear and Magnacut, whereas K390 and S110V get almost there along different paths but stay at that level a long time in my use).

I’m more inquisitive than bothered tbh, i’m just chalking it down to some unknown variable on this specific mule. I’ll definitely be picking up a PITS 2 regardless of whether it’s M398 or not, I just won’t be expecting an easy time sharpening it.
- Al

Work: Jumpmaster 2

Home: DF2 K390 Wharncliffe/DF2 Salt H1 SE and K390 Police 4 LW SE/15V Shaman

Dream knives -
Chinook in Magnacut (any era)
Manix 2 XL Salt in Magnacut
A larger Rockjumper in Magnacut SE
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Traditional.Sharpening
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Re: Get me excited about M398

#110

Post by Traditional.Sharpening »

This may have something to do with carbide volume and the required apex angles to stabilize the carbides at the high polish you are using. You may need as much as 30 DPS micro-bevel to get the carbides supported enough to stabilize the apex. This is the down-side of high carbide steels but the good news is it only need be an apex bevel. So try apexing at 20 DPS and if that doesn't help work your way up to 30 DPS. The bevel need not be visible even as it only works to stabilize at micro level.

Why do you need such high push cutting ability on the polished edge? High carbide steels are much better suited to coarse cutting edges because of this downside and if you are willing to accept very low sharpness then it will cut a very long tong time once it gets to that state. If you must have the higher polish then 1) be willing to use the extreme apex angles and 2) learn how to sharpen WITHOUT raising a burr. Plateau sharpening is not as hard as many would believe, please try it.



The goal of sharpening should not ever be to raise a burr. This is misguided advice in general as it is often used to tell the sharpener that they've removed enough metal to do something like jump to higher grit stone or switch sides. Well here's the honest-to-god truth, if you've ever noticed light reflecting off a damaged apex.... then you too can plateau sharpen as that is the stimulus for switching to a fine finishing stone.

When the edge stops reflecting light (after you have very lightly ground a barely visible flat or 'plateau' along the apex) the edge is just short of being apexed, which is your way of knowing that you are ready for the next step of applying a micro-bevel to set the apex in very short time frame (as in under a minute). If it takes more than this then you haven't gone far enough on the coarse or initial stone.

The only time I'd ever intetionally grind to a burr is if I am reprofiling a knife, where some overgrind is often required to even out both sides of the edge bevel. You really are doing just that if you are grinding to a burr all the time --- overgrinding. You've removed too much metal already at this point. Therefore, it would be the next step to remove that burr as much as possible on the stone that created it in the first place by using higher angle passes to grind it off directly.



I would never attempt to apex a knife without burr minimization steps being done prior to applying the apex with a micro-bevel. This practice of burring guarantees that the edge's apex will be in the worst possible condition to begin applying an apex with as it will be ragged and missing big pieces (relative to finish grit) which will only hinder reaching high sharpness. The other bit of advice I'd give is that I believe you are starting with a grit that is much too coarse on such a brittle steel.

Also, the more you can simplify the steps involved in getting the knife sharp the less confusion you introduce into the process when things go as they are for you and you are trying to figure out what's happening. If I were approaching your knife with a sharpening progression using your stones, then I would simplify the steps to begin and set the edge using 600. Minimize burr (or ideally avoid burr to begin with and stop grinding when light stops reflecting). Finish the edge with micro-bevel and burr minimization directly on the 1500 stone. I do not ever use strops and they are unnecessary if you follow my advice.

Basically, the simple... coarse > fine stone progression. If you cannot get the knife to easily shave off the 300 grit diamond plate then this is a technique problem as I frequently achieve this on all steels up to the exotic and very hard ones like Rex 76, etc. using a 220 Tormek Aluminum oxide wheel and deburring right on the stone after reprofiling. If you cannot achieve it on a coarse non-slurry stone then jumping in grit is not likely to help correct things much for you.

Ideally the coarse stone you use would be a muddy one such as a waterstone -- and YES, many of these will cut the high carbide stuff-- as it will minimize the burr strongly by the effect of the mud grinding into burr on edge leading stroke. This will allow you to get the edge bevel set without relying on the burr forming as you'll expect that it will never form (only get to a certain apex thickness and nothing more happens). Something like a cheap/simple Suehiro 320 Cerax would be good.
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Traditional.Sharpening
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Re: Get me excited about M398

#111

Post by Traditional.Sharpening »

Traditional.Sharpening wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:09 am
This may have something to do with carbide volume and the required apex angles to stabilize the carbides at the high polish you are using. You may need as much as 30 DPS micro-bevel to get the carbides supported enough to stabilize the apex. This is the down-side of high carbide steels but the good news is it only need be an apex bevel. So try apexing at 20 DPS and if that doesn't help work your way up to 30 DPS. The bevel need not be visible even as it only works to stabilize at micro level.

Why do you need such high push cutting ability on the polished edge? High carbide steels are much better suited to coarse cutting edges because of this downside and if you are willing to accept very low sharpness then it will cut a very long tong time once it gets to that state. If you must have the higher polish then 1) be willing to use the extreme apex angles and 2) learn how to sharpen WITHOUT raising a burr. Plateau sharpening is not as hard as many would believe, please try it.



The goal of sharpening should not ever be to raise a burr. This is misguided advice in general as it is often used to tell the sharpener that they've removed enough metal to do something like jump to higher grit stone or switch sides. Well here's the honest-to-god truth, if you've ever noticed light reflecting off a damaged apex.... then you too can plateau sharpen as that is the stimulus for switching to a fine finishing stone.

When the edge stops reflecting light (after you have very lightly ground a barely visible flat or 'plateau' along the apex) the edge is just short of being apexed, which is your way of knowing that you are ready for the next step of applying a micro-bevel to set the apex in very short time frame (as in under a minute). If it takes more than this then you haven't gone far enough on the coarse or initial stone.

The only time I'd ever intetionally grind to a burr is if I am reprofiling a knife, where some overgrind is often required to even out both sides of the edge bevel. You really are doing just that if you are grinding to a burr all the time --- overgrinding. You've removed too much metal already at this point. Therefore, it would be the next step to remove that burr as much as possible on the stone that created it in the first place by using higher angle passes to grind it off directly.



I would never attempt to apex a knife without burr minimization steps being done prior to applying the apex with a micro-bevel. This practice of burring guarantees that the edge's apex will be in the worst possible condition to begin applying an apex with as it will be ragged and missing big pieces (relative to finish grit) which will only hinder reaching high sharpness. The other bit of advice I'd give is that I believe you are starting with a grit that is much too coarse on such a brittle steel.

Also, the more you can simplify the steps involved in getting the knife sharp the less confusion you introduce into the process when things go as they are for you and you are trying to figure out what's happening. If I were approaching your knife with a sharpening progression using your stones, then I would simplify the steps to begin and set the edge using 600. Minimize burr (or ideally avoid burr to begin with and stop grinding when light stops reflecting). Finish the edge with micro-bevel and burr minimization directly on the 1500 stone. I do not ever use strops and they are unnecessary if you follow my advice.

Basically, the simple... coarse > fine stone progression. If you cannot get the knife to easily shave off the 300 grit diamond plate then this is a technique problem as I frequently achieve this on all steels up to the exotic and very hard ones like Rex 76, etc. using a 220 Tormek Aluminum oxide wheel and deburring right on the stone after reprofiling. If you cannot achieve it on a coarse non-slurry stone then jumping in grit is not likely to help correct things much for you.

Ideally the coarse stone you use would be a muddy one such as a waterstone -- and YES, many of these will cut the high carbide stuff-- as it will minimize the burr strongly by the effect of the mud grinding into burr on edge leading stroke. This will allow you to get the edge bevel set without relying on the burr forming as you'll expect that it will never form (only get to a certain apex thickness and nothing more happens). Something like a cheap/simple Suehiro 320/700/1000 Cerax is good.
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JoviAl
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Re: Get me excited about M398

#112

Post by JoviAl »

Traditional.Sharpening wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:09 am
This may have something to do with carbide volume and the required apex angles to stabilize the carbides at the high polish you are using. You may need as much as 30 DPS micro-bevel to get the carbides supported enough to stabilize the apex. This is the down-side of high carbide steels but the good news is it only need be an apex bevel. So try apexing at 20 DPS and if that doesn't help work your way up to 30 DPS. The bevel need not be visible even as it only works to stabilize at micro level.

Why do you need such high push cutting ability on the polished edge? High carbide steels are much better suited to coarse cutting edges because of this downside and if you are willing to accept very low sharpness then it will cut a very long tong time once it gets to that state. If you must have the higher polish then 1) be willing to use the extreme apex angles and 2) learn how to sharpen WITHOUT raising a burr. Plateau sharpening is not as hard as many would believe, please try it.



The goal of sharpening should not ever be to raise a burr. This is misguided advice in general as it is often used to tell the sharpener that they've removed enough metal to do something like jump to higher grit stone or switch sides. Well here's the honest-to-god truth, if you've ever noticed light reflecting off a damaged apex.... then you too can plateau sharpen as that is the stimulus for switching to a fine finishing stone.

When the edge stops reflecting light (after you have very lightly ground a barely visible flat or 'plateau' along the apex) the edge is just short of being apexed, which is your way of knowing that you are ready for the next step of applying a micro-bevel to set the apex in very short time frame (as in under a minute). If it takes more than this then you haven't gone far enough on the coarse or initial stone.

The only time I'd ever intetionally grind to a burr is if I am reprofiling a knife, where some overgrind is often required to even out both sides of the edge bevel. You really are doing just that if you are grinding to a burr all the time --- overgrinding. You've removed too much metal already at this point. Therefore, it would be the next step to remove that burr as much as possible on the stone that created it in the first place by using higher angle passes to grind it off directly.



I would never attempt to apex a knife without burr minimization steps being done prior to applying the apex with a micro-bevel. This practice of burring guarantees that the edge's apex will be in the worst possible condition to begin applying an apex with as it will be ragged and missing big pieces (relative to finish grit) which will only hinder reaching high sharpness. The other bit of advice I'd give is that I believe you are starting with a grit that is much too coarse on such a brittle steel.

Also, the more you can simplify the steps involved in getting the knife sharp the less confusion you introduce into the process when things go as they are for you and you are trying to figure out what's happening. If I were approaching your knife with a sharpening progression using your stones, then I would simplify the steps to begin and set the edge using 600. Minimize burr (or ideally avoid burr to begin with and stop grinding when light stops reflecting). Finish the edge with micro-bevel and burr minimization directly on the 1500 stone. I do not ever use strops and they are unnecessary if you follow my advice.

Basically, the simple... coarse > fine stone progression. If you cannot get the knife to easily shave off the 300 grit diamond plate then this is a technique problem as I frequently achieve this on all steels up to the exotic and very hard ones like Rex 76, etc. using a 220 Tormek Aluminum oxide wheel and deburring right on the stone after reprofiling. If you cannot achieve it on a coarse non-slurry stone then jumping in grit is not likely to help correct things much for you.

Ideally the coarse stone you use would be a muddy one such as a waterstone -- and YES, many of these will cut the high carbide stuff-- as it will minimize the burr strongly by the effect of the mud grinding into burr on edge leading stroke. This will allow you to get the edge bevel set without relying on the burr forming as you'll expect that it will never form (only get to a certain apex thickness and nothing more happens). Something like a cheap/simple Suehiro 320 Cerax would be good.
Thanks for the comprehensive response 👍🏻

I completely admit I gun for a hair whittling edge mainly because I just straight up like it. I do quite a lot of grafting of fruit trees and a knife that sharp makes beautiful neat incisions into the bark, mitigating some of the issues of disease ingress through rough cut work.

I’m open to learning and trying new methods of sharpening, especially if they are swift (I’ve already spent quite a lot of time experimenting with dual grit sharpening with overall good results). I mainly use a KME for many of my work tools as I get through on average three knives a day and it is fast, gives easily repeatable results and gets them hellaciously sharp.

Ultimately I don’t give two hoots how I get my knives sharp, just that they are sharp when I next come to use them. I’ll give the methods you suggested above a go tomorrow and see how I get on. Currently it takes me about an hour a day on average to sharpen my kit, which usually comprises of - one SE blade (size varies according to my whim), a small 2~3inch PE, a 4-5 inch PE and a 9-12inch machete. The larger ones often have edge damage to remove, hence frequently starting with the low grits. The SE I do with a sharp maker out in the field.

Have a great day 👍🏻
Al
- Al

Work: Jumpmaster 2

Home: DF2 K390 Wharncliffe/DF2 Salt H1 SE and K390 Police 4 LW SE/15V Shaman

Dream knives -
Chinook in Magnacut (any era)
Manix 2 XL Salt in Magnacut
A larger Rockjumper in Magnacut SE
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Traditional.Sharpening
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Re: Get me excited about M398

#113

Post by Traditional.Sharpening »

If you're chasing high push-cutting sharpness then you are really best served by something with the exact opposite qualities, which is something along the lines of AEB-L as presented in the Mule's. This can allow you to run apex bevels sub-10 DPS at very high polish as the carbides are very small and well supported because of it. These angles also increase edge retention.

Super Blue, 1095, 01, LC200N, Nitrobe 77... all over 60 RC -- all of these are examples of high edge stability steels. High carbide is the way to reduce edge stability mainly. It's simply a case of matching the steel to the intended use, there's no bad steel unless you've done what you just said by outlining your use parameters as then it becomes very obvious what works best.

With a decent waterstone one can easily reset the edge bevel by hand on most everything in a matter of just a minute or so as documented in the video above, which is using probably one of the worst performing stones you could use. That said, if it takes longer then you need a coarser stone or you are doing something wrong no matter the stone.

1 hr sharpening progression is just a crazy concept to me as I can reprofile massive thick and long choppers on a slow RPM Tormek from something like 25-30 DPS to 15-20 DPS and get shaving sharp in that time at high polish. I know many are not professionals so they don't have a good grinder but most underestimate how fast a good waterstone and some skill can be.

Also worth mentioning, the video on deburring above may not be great for your diamond plate's longevity. I generally only do this on harder bonded ceramic or silicon carbide stones which pretty much are impervious to this other then shedding a bit of grit which can easily be reconditioned with a dressing stone as needed. The technique works great though in general.
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JoviAl
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Re: Get me excited about M398

#114

Post by JoviAl »

I’m using my tools mainly for landscaping/arboriculture work and bushcraft (I run a Forest School in the tropics). I’ve found Magnacut to be a great happy medium of attributes (toughness/edge retention/speed of sharpening/doesn’t easily rust) but I also really like PW Custom’s Elmax - not as en vogue of late, but what a great steel for whacking about in trees.

I don’t know if you mean people generally taking an hour to sharpen one knife or me specifically (I take an hour total to do all four knives), but if it is the former then I reckon it’s justifiable if they enjoy the process. For my purposes though I just want as sharp as I can get in as quick a time as I can reasonably do it with the tools at hand (Sharpmaker/Worksharp/KME/bench grinder with MDF wheels and abrasive compounds/industrial horizontal wheel blade sharpening machine thing (the proper name eludes me - it’s a massive thing in our machine shop that pukes oil everywhere)). If it is faster to freehand sharpen I have no issue putting in the hours and cash to build my competency - I like the challenge of learning new things. If I can do 4 knives in 30 mins instead of an hour that is 2.5 hours a week saved that I could be doing something else useful.

Do you have any recommendations for decent dry stones? Price is no issue as it will be covered by my work budget.

Have a great day,
Al
Last edited by JoviAl on Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Al

Work: Jumpmaster 2

Home: DF2 K390 Wharncliffe/DF2 Salt H1 SE and K390 Police 4 LW SE/15V Shaman

Dream knives -
Chinook in Magnacut (any era)
Manix 2 XL Salt in Magnacut
A larger Rockjumper in Magnacut SE
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JoviAl
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Re: Get me excited about M398

#115

Post by JoviAl »

Traditional.Sharpening wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:12 am
If you're chasing high push-cutting sharpness then you are really best served by something with the exact opposite qualities, which is something along the lines of AEB-L as presented in the Mule's. This can allow you to run apex bevels sub-10 DPS at very high polish as the carbides are very small and well supported because of it. These angles also increase edge retention.

Super Blue, 1095, 01, LC200N, Nitrobe 77... all over 60 RC -- all of these are examples of high edge stability steels. High carbide is the way to reduce edge stability mainly. It's simply a case of matching the steel to the intended use, there's no bad steel unless you've done what you just said by outlining your use parameters as then it becomes very obvious what works best.

With a decent waterstone one can easily reset the edge bevel by hand on most everything in a matter of just a minute or so as documented in the video above, which is using probably one of the worst performing stones you could use. That said, if it takes longer then you need a coarser stone or you are doing something wrong no matter the stone.

1 hr sharpening progression is just a crazy concept to me as I can reprofile massive thick and long choppers on a slow RPM Tormek from something like 25-30 DPS to 15-20 DPS and get shaving sharp in that time at high polish. I know many are not professionals so they don't have a good grinder but most underestimate how fast a good waterstone and some skill can be.

Also worth mentioning, the video on deburring above may not be great for your diamond plate's longevity. I generally only do this on harder bonded ceramic or silicon carbide stones which pretty much are impervious to this other then shedding a bit of grit which can easily be reconditioned with a dressing stone as needed. The technique works great though in general.
Forgot to quote you in my response above ☝🏻

🤦🏼‍♂️ it’s been a long day.
- Al

Work: Jumpmaster 2

Home: DF2 K390 Wharncliffe/DF2 Salt H1 SE and K390 Police 4 LW SE/15V Shaman

Dream knives -
Chinook in Magnacut (any era)
Manix 2 XL Salt in Magnacut
A larger Rockjumper in Magnacut SE
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Traditional.Sharpening
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Re: Get me excited about M398

#116

Post by Traditional.Sharpening »

JoviAl wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:43 am
I’m using my tools mainly for landscaping/arboriculture work and bushcraft (I run a Forest School in the tropics). I’ve found Magnacut to be a great happy medium of attributes (toughness/edge retention/speed of sharpening/doesn’t easily rust) but I also really like PW Custom’s Elmax - not as en vogue of late, but what a great steel for whacking about in trees.

I don’t know if you mean people generally taking an hour to sharpen one knife or me specifically (I take an hour total to do all four knives), but if it is the former then I reckon it’s justifiable if they enjoy the process. For my purposes though I just want as sharp as I can get in as quick a time as I can reasonably do it with the tools at hand (Sharpmaker/Worksharp/KME/bench grinder with MDF wheels and abrasive compounds/industrial horizontal wheel blade sharpening machine thing (the proper name eludes me - it’s a massive thing in our machine shop that pukes oil everywhere)). If it is faster to freehand sharpen I have no issue putting in the hours and cash to build my competency - I like the challenge of learning new things. If I can do 4 knives in 30 mins instead of an hour that is 2.5 hours a week saved that I could be doing something else useful.

Do you have any recommendations for decent dry stones? Price is no issue as it will be covered by my work budget.

Have a great day,
Al
I misread about the 1hr but it is common for some people to spend that long on one blade. What exactly do you mean when you say dry stones? As in oilstones? Anything from Norton tends to be good, their Ascent ceramics are great for apexing (as are the Spyderco equivalent bench stones.

The wear resistance is often touted as most important but in your case I'd take the ability to run lower edge angles to be most important as it reduces cutting force dramatically and also works to boost edge retention without the downside of having difficult to grind steel. Wood is simply not very abrasive as you will quickly see if you tried to grind your knife with a piece, hence very low wear. The edge will fail by deformation and/or chipping generally and this is where the stability comes in as a benefit. Most of the steels Spyderco uses will not be ideal here for this reason as they tend to go heavy on CATRA, etc.

The Shapton Pro 220 is good for setting edges on many of the common higher end steels up to HSS. It's splash and go and comes with a nice base/case combo and it's hard to beat for the money. You'd likely want to add the Shapton Pro 1000 as it can fill in for the 220 on lightly blunted edges, etc quite well as it cuts rapidly and works on HSS also. You could do quite well with those and a set of diamond plates for setting the apex (or sintered ceramics like the Spyderco, Ascent, etc.)

The step where you actually really benefit from the high precision in angle control of the fixed type systems is in setting the apex as it does benefit a lot but they are slow in general for the shaping steps in general As long as your rough shaping/reset grinding falls at lower angle than the finishing angle then it doesn't matter much if there's some inconsistency there. People tend to do the opposite and go for mega precision on the shaping step and little to no precision on the strop, etc.
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JoviAl
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Re: Get me excited about M398

#117

Post by JoviAl »

Traditional.Sharpening wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:11 am
JoviAl wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:43 am
I’m using my tools mainly for landscaping/arboriculture work and bushcraft (I run a Forest School in the tropics). I’ve found Magnacut to be a great happy medium of attributes (toughness/edge retention/speed of sharpening/doesn’t easily rust) but I also really like PW Custom’s Elmax - not as en vogue of late, but what a great steel for whacking about in trees.

I don’t know if you mean people generally taking an hour to sharpen one knife or me specifically (I take an hour total to do all four knives), but if it is the former then I reckon it’s justifiable if they enjoy the process. For my purposes though I just want as sharp as I can get in as quick a time as I can reasonably do it with the tools at hand (Sharpmaker/Worksharp/KME/bench grinder with MDF wheels and abrasive compounds/industrial horizontal wheel blade sharpening machine thing (the proper name eludes me - it’s a massive thing in our machine shop that pukes oil everywhere)). If it is faster to freehand sharpen I have no issue putting in the hours and cash to build my competency - I like the challenge of learning new things. If I can do 4 knives in 30 mins instead of an hour that is 2.5 hours a week saved that I could be doing something else useful.

Do you have any recommendations for decent dry stones? Price is no issue as it will be covered by my work budget.

Have a great day,
Al
I misread about the 1hr but it is common for some people to spend that long on one blade. What exactly do you mean when you say dry stones? As in oilstones? Anything from Norton tends to be good, their Ascent ceramics are great for apexing (as are the Spyderco equivalent bench stones.

The wear resistance is often touted as most important but in your case I'd take the ability to run lower edge angles to be most important as it reduces cutting force dramatically and also works to boost edge retention without the downside of having difficult to grind steel. Wood is simply not very abrasive as you will quickly see if you tried to grind your knife with a piece, hence very low wear. The edge will fail by deformation and/or chipping generally and this is where the stability comes in as a benefit. Most of the steels Spyderco uses will not be ideal here for this reason as they tend to go heavy on CATRA, etc.

The Shapton Pro 220 is good for setting edges on many of the common higher end steels up to HSS. It's splash and go and comes with a nice base/case combo and it's hard to beat for the money. You'd likely want to add the Shapton Pro 1000 as it can fill in for the 220 on lightly blunted edges, etc quite well as it cuts rapidly and works on HSS also. You could do quite well with those and a set of diamond plates for setting the apex (or sintered ceramics like the Spyderco, Ascent, etc.)

The step where you actually really benefit from the high precision in angle control of the fixed type systems is in setting the apex as it does benefit a lot but they are slow in general for the shaping steps in general As long as your rough shaping/reset grinding falls at lower angle than the finishing angle then it doesn't matter much if there's some inconsistency there. People tend to do the opposite and go for mega precision on the shaping step and little to no precision on the strop, etc.
I’ll PM you 👍🏻
- Al

Work: Jumpmaster 2

Home: DF2 K390 Wharncliffe/DF2 Salt H1 SE and K390 Police 4 LW SE/15V Shaman

Dream knives -
Chinook in Magnacut (any era)
Manix 2 XL Salt in Magnacut
A larger Rockjumper in Magnacut SE
Steeltoez83
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Re: Get me excited about M398

#118

Post by Steeltoez83 »

Screenshot_20230608_105241_Gallery.jpg
I started back doing edge retention testing. This bradford guardian I picked up at blade show on the 3rd edge achieved 365 cuts which is half of what I got with M398. I predicted MagnaCut would deliver around this number. Magnacut in my experience has about the same resistance to impacts as cruwear. I only did 40 cut tests to get to that conclusion. Future testing will incorporate controlled impacts during testing to see if this magnacut will outlast the m398 mule. Plus I have the Aeb-l mule and the 10V Para 3 to test as well. I sent both those steels to triple b months before they got announced in the lineup. So I feel I'm indirectly responsible for them. And obligated to provide my test results.
"Nothing is built on stone; all is built on sand, but we must build as if the sand were stone."
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Re: Get me excited about M398

#119

Post by Bolster »

Steeltoez83 wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:22 am
I started back doing edge retention testing. This bradford guardian I picked up at blade show on the 3rd edge achieved 365 cuts which is half of what I got with M398. I predicted MagnaCut would deliver around this number. Magnacut in my experience has about the same resistance to impacts as cruwear. I only did 40 cut tests to get to that conclusion. Future testing will incorporate controlled impacts during testing to see if this magnacut will outlast the m398 mule. Plus I have the Aeb-l mule and the 10V Para 3 to test as well. I sent both those steels to triple b months before they got announced in the lineup. So I feel I'm indirectly responsible for them. And obligated to provide my test results.

Cool, man!! In which case, I feel obligated to read your test results! Looking forward to them.
Steel novice who self-identifies as a steel expert. Proud M.N.O.S.D. member 0003. Spydie Steels: 4V, 15V, 20CV, AEB-L, AUS6, Cru-Wear, HAP40, K294, K390, M4, Magnacut, S110V, S30V, S35VN, S45VN, SPY27, SRS13, T15, VG10, XHP, ZWear, ZDP189
Steeltoez83
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Re: Get me excited about M398

#120

Post by Steeltoez83 »

Bolster wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 9:20 am
Steeltoez83 wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:22 am
I started back doing edge retention testing. This bradford guardian I picked up at blade show on the 3rd edge achieved 365 cuts which is half of what I got with M398. I predicted MagnaCut would deliver around this number. Magnacut in my experience has about the same resistance to impacts as cruwear. I only did 40 cut tests to get to that conclusion. Future testing will incorporate controlled impacts during testing to see if this magnacut will outlast the m398 mule. Plus I have the Aeb-l mule and the 10V Para 3 to test as well. I sent both those steels to triple b months before they got announced in the lineup. So I feel I'm indirectly responsible for them. And obligated to provide my test results.

Cool, man!! In which case, I feel obligated to read your test results! Looking forward to them.
Thankyou I appreciate that.
"Nothing is built on stone; all is built on sand, but we must build as if the sand were stone."
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