Why don't you Baton?

[ykspydiefan]

Ok Team. Here's the dream. I'm hoping for an Aeb-L Mule baton sample of more than one . So, who is up for it? Aeb-L is a tough steel, machete steel, I dare say bushcraft steel. Hit it!

Or, add to the sensible list of why one should not use a knife when a hatchet is the safe, more efficient and more effective tool for the job.

Use them, bruise them, or loose them, you can still buy another.


I'll start the don't list:

When batoning oversized wood it is possible to force the knife scales into the wood, if one is not careful. The risk of damaging the scales or handle/handleability of the knife is not worth the risk. Take a hatchet.

[kennbr34]

In terms of safety, splitting and processing firewood with a hatchet or by batoning both kind of have the same kind of perilous potential of accidental wrist-smackage. One might argue that a hatchet will cause a lot more damage in that scenario, but I also think batoning unnecessarily puts your wrist in that danger zone in a way that using a hatchet doesn't have to do. With a good saw, you can make a flat to stand a piece of wood and hit it with a hatchet without having to even have your other arm extended out near it, but when you're batoning, you're always holding the handle of a knife somewhere near that piece of wood. When done with a large knife, that gives you a lot of lee-way, but the smaller the knife gets, the closer to your hand you're striking. Then consider when you get fatigued, how much more sloppy those swings might be, how much heavier your baton might be to compensate for a small knife, and to me I think the potential to break some fingers or injure your wrist becomes greater than the potential of hurting yourself with the hatchet was.

It seems like batoning comes out of a strive for minimalism, and so that efficiency thing you touched on also matters. I'm sure there are probably a lot of people who are pretty graceful with batoning, but personally I'm pretty clumsy with it. I think I could process more firewood in the same period of time with a hatchet and with a lot less of a learning curve, while meanwhile all I'm really adding is an extra pound of gear that I have to carry to the campsite once. It kind of seems like being able to process more firewood at one time would lead to having to go off and collect it less often and save more energy than you spend carrying in that one extra piece of gear.

But I'm not really a batoning afficinado, so I'm sure someone could come up with some reasonable arguments to the contrary of those.

[Self Taught]

Don’t baton a mule cause they are very thin and any lateral movement will likely snap them, no matter what steel. I snapped a PD1 (cpm cruwear) mule on a 2x4. I still baton them on straight grained wood while camping though , haven’t learned my lesson yet

[kennbr34]

Don’t baton a mule cause they are very thin and any lateral movement will likely snap them, no matter what steel. I snapped a PD1 (cpm cruwear) mule on a 2x4. I still baton them on straight grained wood while camping though , haven’t learned my lesson yet

That seems weird. I've got a lot of carbon 10** series carbon steel blades that are as thin or thinner than the Mules, and can and have beat the snot out of them without them snapping. They're also pretty soft, at the 56-68 HRC rockwell range. But if you look at Larrin Thomas's charts, AEB-L and CruWear are still quite a bit tougher than even 1095 at higher hardnesses.





Could possibly be down to the grain sizes. Even for not being very on those toughness tests, 1095 is pretty fine grained compare to CruWear

1095 Grain:


CruWear:


Versus AEB-L:

[Bolster]

I'm still amazed that people who live in other states, get to go into forests and build fires. The reason I don't baton is that I can't legally burn split wood in the out-of-doors, living in California. Not even in my back yard! So what's the point of batoning?

PS: What the heck is "manchette steel"? I looked up the word and got references to sperm, a novelist, a cuff/bracelet, and the paper thingy that covers an exposed bone on fancy meat served in a restaurant.

[ykspydiefan]

In terms of safety, splitting and processing firewood with a hatchet or by batoning both kind of have the same kind of perilous potential of accidental wrist-smackage. One might argue that a hatchet will cause a lot more damage in that scenario, but I also think batoning unnecessarily puts your wrist in that danger zone in a way that using a hatchet doesn't have to do. With a good saw, you can make a flat to stand a piece of wood and hit it with a hatchet without having to even have your other arm extended out near it, but when you're batoning, you're always holding the handle of a knife somewhere near that piece of wood. When done with a large knife, that gives you a lot of lee-way, but the smaller the knife gets, the closer to your hand you're striking. Then consider when you get fatigued, how much more sloppy those swings might be, how much heavier your baton might be to compensate for a small knife, and to me I think the potential to break some fingers or injure your wrist becomes greater than the potential of hurting yourself with the hatchet was.

It seems like batoning comes out of a strive for minimalism, and so that efficiency thing you touched on also matters. I'm sure there are probably a lot of people who are pretty graceful with batoning, but personally I'm pretty clumsy with it. I think I could process more firewood in the same period of time with a hatchet and with a lot less of a learning curve, while meanwhile all I'm really adding is an extra pound of gear that I have to carry to the campsite once. It kind of seems like being able to process more firewood at one time would lead to having to go off and collect it less often and save more energy than you spend carrying in that one extra piece of gear.

But I'm not really a batoning afficinado, so I'm sure someone could come up with some reasonable arguments to the contrary of those.

Way more thoughtful on safety than I. Thanks.
I gotta say, I am not much for batoning. But, the advertisement for this Mule showed a person batoning so I felt obligated in a way to test the blade in the suggested manner. I have no urge to baton any other Mule in my stable.
I understand the strive for minimalism but ever since Season 3 Alone series winner chose a multitool vs knife, well it changed my entire understanding of survival in the woods. Sure, I would like a 4" or longer blade if I were doing a baton challenge, and I take a multitool on 2 week canoe trips and a Waterway.
As for batoning my current Aeb-L Mule I was really surprised by the initial chip and the blade has been performing as expected since.

[ykspydiefan]

Don’t baton a mule cause they are very thin and any lateral movement will likely snap them, no matter what steel. I snapped a PD1 (cpm cruwear) mule on a 2x4. I still baton them on straight grained wood while camping though , haven’t learned my lesson yet

Took one for the team! Thanks for doing it. Please post us a pic next time you get out there.
I do not think the Mule is a good platform for batoning. It is short as noted above, and thin as you say. Maybe the thinness played into why my Mule chipped?? For sure the length played into why my scales smacked into the log I was batoning and caused them to loosen. Good fortune, nothing broken, re-tighten and go.
Thanks for the reply.

[ykspydiefan]

Hey kennbr34, thanks for putting up some relevant Dr. Larrin info. Lots of points of entry when it comes to understanding steel.

Thank you Larrin for making the info real and available.

[ykspydiefan]

I'm still amazed that people who live in other states, get to go into forests and build fires. The reason I don't baton is that I can't legally burn split wood in the out-of-doors, living in California. Not even in my back yard! So what's the point of batoning?

PS: What the heck is "manchette steel"? I looked up the word and got references to sperm, a novelist, a cuff/bracelet, and the paper thingy that covers an exposed bone on fancy meat served in a restaurant.

I am amazed to when it comes to how different people are. It is not legal, but I live far enough north that it is not uncommon for people to drag old cars to the gravel pit to burn and shoot. It is not my style but I do enjoy a certain type of freedom way up here. Not totally senseless, we just started "Fire Bans," as our fire season started early and is quite bad. Right now, if you put up enough smoke, the Resources Officers will drop in on you with a helicopter and charge you every penny for it. Anyway...

When it it sensible season we can burn, and heat our homes with wood. We get a lot of pallets left behind in our town as they are not worth the truck ride south, so we burn them steady. I do much of my edged testing on pallet wood, then use the shavings for tinder packs.

As for batoning, I may be abel to get over it once the 15V BBB has landed and I swap my only Halperns over.

Thanks for the reply,

ps I've never heard of "manchette steel."

[Jim Malone]

The O.P. probably means Machete instead of Manchette. They use this word in French speaking countries. As the Machete (pronounced macheite in most of Africa) is made in Carbon steel i presume he means 1075 carbon steel.

[Xplorer]

I'm curious if anyone here has broken a knife or hurt themselves as a result of batonning.

I've taught my kids how to split wood with their knives. But, I can't say I've ever used a Mule for this purpose.

Here's my daughter learning to baton in the John Muir Wilderness (just below 10,000' where fires are legal).


Depending on the piece of wood being split, I might be concerned about the potential to break a Mule tip off during the second step. First the spine can be whacked, and that's pretty strong.


But, once the knife is in the wood you may only have the tip to hit and I'd be concerned that Mule tips may not be intended for that type of abuse. That said, the stress on the knife largely depends on the size of the wood you try to split. To baton through 1" diameter kindling or smaller would be easy for a Mule or most knives.

[ykspydiefan]

I'm curious if anyone here has broken a knife or hurt themselves as a result of batonning.

I've taught my kids how to split wood with their knives. But, I can't say I've ever used a Mule for this purpose.

Here's my daughter learning to baton in the John Muir Wilderness (just below 10,000' where fires are legal).


Depending on the piece of wood being split, I might be concerned about the potential to break a Mule tip off during the second step. First the spine can be whacked, and that's pretty strong.


But, once the knife is in the wood you may only have the tip to hit and I'd be concerned that Mule tips may not be intended for that type of abuse. That said, the stress on the knife largely depends on the size of the wood you try to split. To baton through 1" diameter kindling or smaller would be easy for a Mule or most knives.

thanks eh!

[Self Taught]

Don’t baton a mule cause they are very thin and any lateral movement will likely snap them, no matter what steel. I snapped a PD1 (cpm cruwear) mule on a 2x4. I still baton them on straight grained wood while camping though , haven’t learned my lesson yet

That seems weird. I've got a lot of carbon 10** series carbon steel blades that are as thin or thinner than the Mules, and can and have beat the snot out of them without them snapping. They're also pretty soft, at the 56-68 HRC rockwell range. But if you look at Larrin Thomas's charts, AEB-L and CruWear are still quite a bit tougher than even 1095 at higher hardnesses.





Could possibly be down to the grain sizes. Even for not being very on those toughness tests, 1095 is pretty fine grained compare to CruWear

1095 Grain:


CruWear:


Versus AEB-L:

2x4 ( fir) was a little twisted and I tried turning the blade while it was pinched (to pop it apart ) and it snapped. Was user error. Just doesn’t have the stock thickness for it

[yablanowitz]

Why don't I baton? Two reasons, 1) I live on the treeless praire where there is no bush to craft. 2) My problem solving skills surpassed "beat it with a stick" when I was five.

[ykspydiefan]

Why don't I baton? Two reasons, 1) I live on the treeless praire where there is no bush to craft. 2) My problem solving skills surpassed "beat it with a stick" when I was five.

Thanks for the reply. Both very valid reasons not to baton.

And, yeah I am not trying to solve a problem either. Just trying out one way to test a Mule.

https://youtu.be/D0YD_kaH-Nk

Funny the first usage shown in the video is batoning. I only found this video last week when looking for the complete Mule Team List.

[ykspydiefan]

Why don't I baton? Two reasons, 1) I live on the treeless praire where there is no bush to craft. 2) My problem solving skills surpassed "beat it with a stick" when I was five.

Thanks for the reply. Both very valid reasons not to baton.

And, yeah I am not trying to solve a problem either. Just trying out one way to test a Mule.

https://youtu.be/D0YD_kaH-Nk

The video is from Spyderco about the Mule Team. Funny the first usage shown in the video is batoning. I only found this video last week when looking for the complete Mule Team List.

[Xplorer]

Why don't I baton? Two reasons, 1) I live on the treeless praire where there is no bush to craft. 2) My problem solving skills surpassed "beat it with a stick" when I was five.

Thanks for the reply. Both very valid reasons not to baton.

And, yeah I am not trying to solve a problem either. Just trying out one way to test a Mule.

https://youtu.be/D0YD_kaH-Nk

Funny the first usage shown in the video is batoning. I only found this video last week when looking for the complete Mule Team List.

Thank you for the link.
I'm just relieved to see there are other people with inferior problem solving skills like myself out there.

[JoviAl]

I baton wood up to about 2 inch diameter at work with my Magnacut mule whenever I don’t have an axe to hand and want a cup of tea (we use Kelly kettles on site for brews). The mule is still going strong but I carefully select the stick and wood type before I start - I really like my little mule and don’t want to bust it through brute force and ignorance.

[vivi]

It's funny how controversial something as simple as splitting wood can be.

I've been batoning knives since the late 90's. Everything from 9" Busses, machetes, opinels, swiss army knives, pacific salts, mules, srk's, victorinox paring knives, aqua salts, street beats, police 4 k390, a2 bushcrafter, o1 bushcrafter, and tons more.

Done correctly it's very easy to do safely and without damaging a knife. I can't think of a single knife I've broken by batoning it, in fact, and I can't recall ever hurting myself either.

I mostly use the technique for kindling with smaller knives. I harvest fatwood locally and cut / saw it into 2"x2" sticks about 8" in length. I baton those sticks to cleanly break off small pieces to start fires with.

Sometimes when making fire after a heavy rain I'll find a good looking larger piece of wood that's wet, and split it with a stouter fixed blade to get to the dry core. But usually I just scavenge for drier pieces of wood as that's usually less effort.

Either way to me batoning pieces of wood is no different than carving some roasting sticks, or making feather sticks and scrapings with the spine to spark a fire. It's just different ways of processing wood with a sharp piece of metal.

Where I live I can build a wood fire in my yard, or head 5 minutes down the road to a lake with benches and fire rings all over the nearby woods. Couldn't imagine not being able to make a simple fire....laws like that would bother me much more than a blade length limit.

[VandymanG]

Living in Western Washington we have periods where we have no fire bans due to the wet weather. Only problem with that is the wood is usually pretty saturated with water by then. I was up near Mowich Lake on Sunday in Mount Rainier National Park. Had a beautiful fire to watch the sunset before heading back down.

I usually have a tomahawk on me when I’m in the woods. Either that or an old roofing axe made of 01 steel that I hand ground with sandpaper into a bearded axe. So I don’t need to baton. Plus the tomahawk and bearded axe are much quicker at splitting wood. I do turn to a knife when I feather a stick, AEB-L mule.