ZDP 189 available on seconds sale

[standy99]

Hi all

Picked up one of the ZDP 189 Mules that was on the seconds sale today. Been available for several hours and still is…

ZDP 189 was Mule #4

Sold as a collector mule as apparently the heat treat was wrong. Box was found at the manufacturer full of them..

$55 in case you wanted to pick up another for the stable

[tcarltonw]

I picked one up as well. I was unaware of heat treat issues.. that kind of sucks. I was hoping there would just be a cosmetic issue. But, it's awesome to be able to acquire a mule from a past offering. I arrived recently to the Mule Team party so I had to bite. She'll still be getting a handmade outfit!

[legOFwhat?]

I have to pass on this, but it would make a great handle mule if its that hard. I've used a Pd#1 mule to get a handle started so I don't scratch up the mule that the handle is intended for. Problem is that Pd1 mule has had metal sanded away so much that the handle is under sized when reaching its intended target.

I've finally retired that mule from handle duty.

[Ramonade]

Since seconds sale is not something I ever had access to, I was very pleasantly surprised to see it opened online for the world !

Even though it might be useless when it comes to the heat treat, I ordered a ZDP Mule just to see.
And a Maxamet PM2, and a Clipitool, and an Efficient.

[standy99]

Since seconds sale is not something I ever had access to, I was very pleasantly surprised to see it opened online for the world !

Even though it might be useless when it comes to the heat treat, I ordered a ZDP Mule just to see.
And a Maxamet PM2, and a Clipitool, and an Efficient.

That’s a lot of and,s

[tcarltonw]

I have to pass on this, but it would make a great handle mule if its that hard. I've used a Pd#1 mule to get a handle started so I don't scratch up the mule that the handle is intended for. Problem is that Pd1 mule has had metal sanded away so much that the handle is under sized when reaching its intended target.

I've finally retired that mule from handle duty.

I'm glad you shared that. Have been doing some planning on paper for starting my first mule handle. I was running that scenario through my head and was worried that I'd come across one that had slightly different tolerances. That's no something you've come across?

[legOFwhat?]

I have to pass on this, but it would make a great handle mule if its that hard. I've used a Pd#1 mule to get a handle started so I don't scratch up the mule that the handle is intended for. Problem is that Pd1 mule has had metal sanded away so much that the handle is under sized when reaching its intended target.

I've finally retired that mule from handle duty.

I'm glad you shared that. Have been doing some planning on paper for starting my first mule handle. I was running that scenario through my head and was worried that I'd come across one that had slightly different tolerances. That's no something you've come across?

Not noticed any differences. Some scales I've made, that were removable, you can grab the tang with your nail in areas, where it's more flush on other knives. My fault for making so many handles for so few knives, I forget which blade originally went with each set of scales.

[yablanowitz]

Sal posted elsewhere that the maker in Japan said the ZDP-189 Mules had been re-heat treated and should be fine. There weren't enough of them for a regular Mule run, so they were sold as seconds. I still wouldn't use one for a prybar.

[tcarltonw]

I have to pass on this, but it would make a great handle mule if its that hard. I've used a Pd#1 mule to get a handle started so I don't scratch up the mule that the handle is intended for. Problem is that Pd1 mule has had metal sanded away so much that the handle is under sized when reaching its intended target.

I've finally retired that mule from handle duty.

I'm glad you shared that. Have been doing some planning on paper for starting my first mule handle. I was running that scenario through my head and was worried that I'd come across one that had slightly different tolerances. That's no something you've come across?

Not noticed any differences. Some scales I've made, that were removable, you can grab the tang with your nail in areas, where it's more flush on other knives. My fault for making so many handles for so few knives, I forget which blade originally went with each set of scales.

Appreciate the info

[standy99]

I have to pass on this, but it would make a great handle mule if its that hard. I've used a Pd#1 mule to get a handle started so I don't scratch up the mule that the handle is intended for. Problem is that Pd1 mule has had metal sanded away so much that the handle is under sized when reaching its intended target.

I've finally retired that mule from handle duty.

I'm glad you shared that. Have been doing some planning on paper for starting my first mule handle. I was running that scenario through my head and was worried that I'd come across one that had slightly different tolerances. That's no something you've come across?

If your pinning your handle and not using Corby bolts be mindful that if the pins are smaller than the holes in the handle steel there is a bit of movement when pinning. So I always mark the scales with a thick black sharpie and cut on the outside of the line. That way you have a good 1mm tolerance…Then you just sand the overhang off.
BUT make the front of the scales neat as you don’t want to be sanding there once glued up…

I epoxy on handles as live tropical and would always get slightly rusty tang when I removed scales after a few months.

[mokele]

Sal posted elsewhere that the maker in Japan said the ZDP-189 Mules had been re-heat treated and should be fine. There weren't enough of them for a regular Mule run, so they were sold as seconds. I still wouldn't use one for a prybar.

I read otherwise, I think it was Kristi who said they were unable to re-treat them.
The original report of issues (some 12-13 years ago) was quite dramatic.
It will still be an awesome collector's item, but I would be afraid using it

[Fireman]

Hi all

Picked up one of the ZDP 189 Mules that was on the seconds sale today. Been available for several hours and still is…

ZDP 189 was Mule #4

Sold as a collector mule as apparently the heat treat was wrong. Box was found at the manufacturer full of them..

$55 in case you wanted to pick up another for the stable

Still available?

[attila]

I passed on the ZDP Mule as well due to the questionable heat treatment. It’s a bummer, but it was kind of nice to have a reason to reduce the number of blades I was compelled to purchase over the last week.

[yablanowitz]

Sal posted elsewhere that the maker in Japan said the ZDP-189 Mules had been re-heat treated and should be fine. There weren't enough of them for a regular Mule run, so they were sold as seconds. I still wouldn't use one for a prybar.

I read otherwise, I think it was Kristi who said they were unable to re-treat them.
The original report of issues (some 12-13 years ago) was quite dramatic.
It will still be an awesome collector's item, but I would be afraid using it

I read the drama when it was happening, while I was carrying and using mine. I still believe the real issue was ham-handed people rather than the blades themselves. I passed on the seconds only because I still have two of the originals. It isn't a steel I would thrash, baton or pry with, but as a cutting tool it worked well.

[standy99]

Hi all

Picked up one of the ZDP 189 Mules that was on the seconds sale today. Been available for several hours and still is…

ZDP 189 was Mule #4

Sold as a collector mule as apparently the heat treat was wrong. Box was found at the manufacturer full of them..

$55 in case you wanted to pick up another for the stable

Still available?

Don’t think the sale is up on the website anymore. They were there for nearly 24 hours though..

Try calling Spyderco and see if they still have 1 or 2 they were pretty much the last thing left on the 2nds sale

[bobartig]

Sal posted elsewhere that the maker in Japan said the ZDP-189 Mules had been re-heat treated and should be fine. There weren't enough of them for a regular Mule run, so they were sold as seconds. I still wouldn't use one for a prybar.

I read otherwise, I think it was Kristi who said they were unable to re-treat them.
The original report of issues (some 12-13 years ago) was quite dramatic.
It will still be an awesome collector's item, but I would be afraid using it

So to loop back here, these are probably dubious heat treat and shouldn't be used? Is there an easy way to test hardness? I picked one of these up as a collector's item. My main goal was just to use it to make handles.

[yablanowitz]

Looping back to when they came out, the incidents I read about all happened when people were putting on handles. Remember, this was MT04. Halpern wasn't making scales for Mules. No one was commercially producing Mule scales, it was either do it yourself or send it to a craftsman to have it done for you. Every report of breakage I saw involved having the blade clamped in a vise while working on handles. No one ever said "I must have leaned into it too hard", it was always "It just snapped". They were tested at the time and were the same hardness as ZDP-189 folder blades. Speculation at the time was that they may need to back off the hardness for a fixed blade. Sal said these seconds has been retreated and the issue was sorted. I wasn't there, so I don't know. The maker could have just shook his heat and muttered "dumbass Americans" before shoving that box into a corner and fogetting it, on the theory that there wasn't anything wrong in the first place. They could have retreated all of them they got back and these were all that survived, not enough for a full release, just as Sal said.

If you bought it as a collector's item, display it proudly. If you bought to use as a handle pattern, it should work fine as long as you don't clamp the blade in a vise while you use a round rasp to shape your scales. Or you could use a chop saw and cut the blade down to a stub to begin with.

I wrapped mine with paracord and used it until the next one came out.

[Ramonade]

I was hoping for a usable blade, even if it has rust spots, discoloration or if the toughness is lower than expected.
However, if the steel is trash-worthy, that'd be a disappointment for sure.

Even for collectors purposes, I don't see Spyderco selling (even as a second), a blade that can't cut or get an edge.

ETA : thanks for the infos yablanowitz, I put the blade in a vise during the last part, to give the final shape to the handle and then hand polish to a very high grit. I might have found a use for the G10 scales for once then.

[yablanowitz]

They may be as hard as the originals, they may be a couple of points softer. That still leaves them in the mid to upper 60s on the Rockwell C scale, so they will take an edge and hold it. Maybe not as well as a ZDP Endura, but that's a pretty high bar. Even at a lower hardness, ZDP 189 is not D2, so don't use it for a crowbar. I don't recall reading a single post about those Mules breaking in use, only when people were putting on handles, and I'd be willing to bet every one was due to lateral pressure.

[Ramonade]

Yeah that's my bet. I've used Spyderco's ZDP a lot and never had any issues. But I only cut with my knives ^^