Mule team - preorder

[Chleiti]

In my extremely limited experience, presales are a mess to track. I run a very small online store (think merch for a local rec sports league, that sort of level) and we've taken preorders a couple times when something is either too expensive for us to carry unsold stock or when an item sold out unexpectedly fast and we're ordering a second batch. In both situations, even at our very small scale, things always go wrong. I can't even imagine how bad it could get for something the size of a mule team run with a potentially multi-year lead time.

People start reaching out and requesting status updates even before the item is scheduled to be delivered. The scheduled delivery gets delayed and they get upset and want more updates. The supplier thought they had enough of that one material in stock but they can't actually fill all the orders. Somebody moved after placing their order and their shipping address has to be updated in the system. Somebody changed their mind after their order was already in production and wants their money back. Something is wrong with their item and they want it replaced from our non-existent back stock. Somebody was supposed to pick up their order in person but now they want it mailed and have to pay for just the shipping. Somebody was supposed to pick up their order but now they're in the hospital. Shipping costs increased since the orders were placed and now we're out money on every package. And so on...

[Tucson Tom]

I don't see a preorder happening, nor do I see what I will suggest in a minute happening. It would all be too big of a hassle for Spyderco, and I can just imagine what would be involved in keeping track of thousands of preorders, it would require a whole 'nuther system of some kind to be set up. I wouldn't even ask them to do it. We are lucky they offer the mules at all.

But if there was to be a preorder, I would also add in a random lottery. There are going to be more orders than available mules, so you pick the lucky 2000 (or whatever it is), fill their orders on the drop date, and send "sorry charlie" emails to the losers. In a perfect world that would be the way to do it. Of course in a perfect world everyone gets what they want by just waving their hand.

That would be the way to do it, but I am by no means suggesting it seriouisly.

[nerdlock]

I successfully got my orders in - and I'm also entertaining the idea of a non-refundable deposit for pre orders. On the other hand, I can also see and agree to some of the points being raised by the majority of those not in favor of preordering. Both sides raise pretty good and serious points and should not be dismissed lightly.

I've said this on the other thread and it bears repeating here again - this time, whether we like it or not, we are competing with FB groups who have several thousand active members, and most of those are influencer-, hype- and FOMO- driven. And I believe they outnumber the active forum members here by a significant ratio.

This is why in my opinion, past Mule experiences where some Mules sat around for months do not necessarily apply in the current scenario. These FB groups did not exist then, or if they did, they did not have the massive amount of social media influencer-driven members that they have right now.

[attila]

I believe that a preorder option would solve the mad rush and people missing out on the day of the release. It sounds like some people are misunderstanding that the quantity produced should be determined after the preorder time window closes. Spyderco decides how many extra to make, so that everyone gets their order and some remain at the SFO for some time.

I think it would also strongly discourage flippers and bots.

[VWTattoo]

As the man who lost the MT01 and also lost out on the latest Mule, I can say a few things about how things went, and where I’m at.

Was I frustrated with the website mishaps and errors while trying ( as a blind man) to get an order in on the site, which is so NOT friendly to navigate? Yes, sure.
Do I think that it’s ok for some to get 2 while others who only wanted 1 got 0? No, but first come, first served I guess.
I also think that a pre order is a good idea, as if all pre orders are in and filled, then the demand may be better met. I’m sure the website ordering process will be improved after this past round of issues.

I am bummed, but accepting of what fate dealt. I have so many other things to be thankful of that this is not the end of the world.

[pantagana23]

In my extremely limited experience, presales are a mess to track. I run a very small online store (think merch for a local rec sports league, that sort of level) and we've taken preorders a couple times when something is either too expensive for us to carry unsold stock or when an item sold out unexpectedly fast and we're ordering a second batch. In both situations, even at our very small scale, things always go wrong. I can't even imagine how bad it could get for something the size of a mule team run with a potentially multi-year lead time.

People start reaching out and requesting status updates even before the item is scheduled to be delivered. The scheduled delivery gets delayed and they get upset and want more updates. The supplier thought they had enough of that one material in stock but they can't actually fill all the orders. Somebody moved after placing their order and their shipping address has to be updated in the system. Somebody changed their mind after their order was already in production and wants their money back. Something is wrong with their item and they want it replaced from our non-existent back stock. Somebody was supposed to pick up their order in person but now they want it mailed and have to pay for just the shipping. Somebody was supposed to pick up their order but now they're in the hospital. Shipping costs increased since the orders were placed and now we're out money on every package. And so on...

I understand your frustration with preorders, but all this can be solved with a good tracking program for preorders + terms and conditions.

Too many orders - even a small warehouse program can track and list preorders with 10 lines of code more
When is the order going to be ready - terms say 1.5 - 2 years. You can call before, but will be forwarded to terms.
Shipping - calculated when order ships, not at time of order.
You changed your mind - terms say non-refundable advance (refundable only in case the seller isn't able to deliver goods after maximum lead time).

On top of this you have (drums in the backround) FORCE MAJEURE.
We have equipment late for more than 7 months in my company, and can't do anything because of this. You just wait patiently, and that's it.

If Spyderco did a preorder in a limited time frame, as I said before, with well written terms and conditions, not only would this turn off scalpels, because everyone who wants this can now get it without any fuss, but would also have better details on order quantity.

They should put the price of the MT a montg prior to their order of steel, maybe 50% non-refundable advance payment for preorder , and the rest when the order is ready.

From their side, they can always lock the supplier with a certain price for a month (you always have quote validity time).

Price of steel goes up in this month - terms and conditions describe this also.
Steel supplier goes broke - also described in terms.

[standy99]

Scalpers would just preorder. Preorders drive up prices for scalpers as it’s longer for hype.

Preorder system would crash just as problems with this and hundreds of limited release everything nowadays.

4000 people wanting 2000 anything is always going to be lucky and unlucky parties.

Seen the same thing happen in the watch world with newer and fandangled websites. Carbon copy of last night with a Omega Speedmaster drop a while back. Even the threads now mirror the experience back then….

[Manixguy@1994]

I suggested preorders on another post . Friend came over and we started talking about ordering the Mule . Funny some of the same things we discussed have been brought up here . I’m not so sure if my statement would be a benefit pertaining to preorders . So that means as Sal has said that Spyderco would be looking into the problem . Personally think now that if they can sort out the IT problem the ordering process should be seamless for everyone. Ladybug93 made a valid comment and I think that should be considered . One thing is for sure no matter what approach Spyderco makes there will always be someone or more buying any desirable knife and drive the cost up on the secondary market. MG2

[JRinFL]

This has all been discussed in the past. While I am mostly in favor of the idea, it is far from perfect. Outside of that, anything that increases the administrative overhead AND cost to Spyderco, the more likely this whole Mule Team experiment gets shelved permanently. This has never been a money maker for Spyderco. This has to be kept in mind, as few if any other companies would even attempt to do something like this.

[pantagana23]

@JRinFL

Really did not notice previous requests for preorder of Mules - did any of those have Spyderco employees or Sals response?

From what I see, only investment is computer software to cope with prepayments.

I agree, it's not a money maker for them, but Spyderco, at least from what I've seen during the last couple of years, is not only about making money.

Well, if we ever get a response here, we will know better what lies ahead.

[JRinFL]

This thread that Sal started and participated in will be enlightening.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=88859

[sal]

Pre-orders are not likely to happen. Way too much hassle. First of all we have a new mega ERP system that we're just implementing. The last thing we need is to try to integrate another program. It would take 3 or 4 "touches" to make it work. Initial contact, follow up, payment, glitches, follow up payment, re-location of customer, change of mind, ecord keeping, etc.

Every Mule is its own project so there are only variables; Cost of steel, length of time to get steel, learning curve, processing costs, quantities, building the part, and each is a one shot deal.

We'll keep trying to improve the system. Not all Mules will be in as high a demand.

Eg; How many would be interested in a Damasteel Mule team. This would appeal more for looks than performance. The first Q is which one? Cost would be high due to material costs and finishing costs, so many would say "too much", so just guessing the quantity would be a migraine, much less trying to pre-order 2 years in advance.

sal

[Deadboxhero]

Damasteel mule would be awesome

[Fireman]

Damasteel mule would be awesome

That would be outrageous popular too. Sign me up.

[crazywednesday]

Every Mule is its own project so there are only variables; Cost of steel, length of time to get steel, learning curve, processing costs, quantities, building the part, and each is a one shot deal.

sal

With all due respect, I don't see why it has to be a one shot deal. Most of the hard work is done. A second run seems fairly straight forward. The recipe has been established. The demand is clearly there for this knife. I too am an individual who missed this buy. I refuse to purchase one on the secondary market for more than retail. Anything greater only fuels flippers. Hopefully there is a second run. If there is, I'll be making another go at it.

[Tucson Tom]

I understand that a preorder will never happen. I can put myself in Spydercos shoes and see what a colossal hassle it would be. And the whole mule thing is (as I see it) just a fun project that it is pretty incredible they do at all and they don't make much if any money on it. Maybe they even lose money, I dunno.

That being said. When I suggested a preorder lottery, I wasn't trying to address the quantity issue. My hairball idea would be the week before they are ready to ship, they take preorders. Put them into a basket (real or virtual) and pull out as many as they have knives to ship. People could be submitting orders all week long, but then the drawing gets done at noon Friday or whatever.

My bet is that quantity is determined by how much time they want to dedicate production machinery to making zero profit mules. They make that decision up front (i.e. the decision of how much they want to play Santa Claus), order the steel and when there is a handy time in the production schedule, make the mules. But I am probably wrong about all of this.

As for taking preorders a year in advance -- what a nightmare that would be! People would move, die, get abducted by aliens or just lose interest in knives over a year. Credit card numbers would change due to some issue with a bank in Borneo, etc. etc. If I was Spyderco I wouldn't touch that kind of thing with a 10 foot pole.

[sal]

I believe the best answer is to have 20% more than the demand. That way they would be available for a few weeks/months after the introduction.

sal

[Naperville]

Truth be told, I've been snapping up the Native Chiefs on a limited budget and missed out on this but I'm willing to buy one.

I'm hoping for a Native Chief in Magnacut. Hope that I can get one!

[pantagana23]

As much as the answer Sal gave us makes me sad, now I know the official statement.

Well, time to move on, Christmas selection time - N5 FRN BB, G-10 or Chap G-10.

Hope that this changes in the future.

[Ramonade]

A damasteel mule would be interesting, it's a steel I haven't tried yet. But as you said @sal, the price would be pretty high. If it can be sold are $110 max I'm in (I have to factor the $45 shipping in the cost !).