Z Max vs Fire Hose

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DFD04
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Z Max vs Fire Hose

#1

Post by DFD04 »

I’m excited to post this thread in the hopes of adding a bit of a practical with a hint of a scientific review of Z Max.

I salvaged some double jacketed 1 3/4” fire hose that was headed to the dumpster. The hose had been in service since 2013 and was no longer repairable. The hose was relatively clean. There is an outer cotton type of jacket, and inside there is another cotton jacket over the rubber. The hose is pretty beefy, even for being in service for almost 10 years.

I held the hose with pliers after the knife dulled a bit to be a little more safe. The edge on the knife was pretty much factory. It had a few cuts of saplings and some dead pear tree wood on it, but it shaved and sliced wrapping paper with ease. I could even push cut the wrapping paper. I made an effort to use the entire blade in the testing, but was careful not to hurt the tip as much as possible.

I started cutting the hose and after 47 cuts the knife stopped shaving. It was noticeably more dull with no discernible edge damage. The ease of cutting was a 2/10 I’d say, with 10 being the hardest to slice.

At cut 86 the knife was what I would call EDC dull. If my pocket knife felt this way, I’d want to touch it up before it got worse. It stopped cutting paper of any kind now. The ease of cutting the hose was about 5/10. Moderate effort, but not stresssful or straining.

The cutting got really interesting now. The knife stayed at this level from cut 86 until cut 200. It held this working edge for a really long time! In this, the meat and potatoes of the test, the knife was a beast. The cutting effort was about 5/10 to 7/10. Nothing dangerous yet, but it was more effort. However, the edge had no real damage, besides a few rolls (you really had to look for them). The cutting was still efficient. The edge felt like it was dull with a tiny bit of tooth left…but it kept cutting! I was super impressed at this stage of the testing.

From cuts 200-219 things got harder. The edge gave up the ghost. It could still cut, but effort was 9/10 now. I could have kept forcing it, but there was little practical or safe cutting left. It finally quit on me.

I would conclude that this knife gave up its factory razor edge after a fair bit of cutting, but held a real working edge for a really long time. Other steels I’ve used extensively such as VG10 and S30V loose their shaving edge and then quickly become butter knives. Not this steel. It was impressive to say the least! The edge rolled in a few spots, but nothing major. The hose was wet inside and the knife operated wet with no rusting. I would be curious to try this with a SE on it for ease of grabbing the hose.

I would not hesitate to take this in the woods for a long backpacking trip. This steel is workable and held up really well.

Enjoy the pics!
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Fireman
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Re: Z Max vs Fire Hose

#2

Post by Fireman »

Awesome “Hose” test!!! I wonder what your results would have been if you stropped the edge after every 20 cuts.
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DFD04
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Re: Z Max vs Fire Hose

#3

Post by DFD04 »

Fireman wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:39 pm
Awesome “Hose” test!!! I wonder what your results would have been if you stropped the edge after every 20 cuts.
Thanks, brother!

The hands paid the price, lol…but all in the name of research!

Interesting idea on the strip, for sure. I’m sure it would have made a load of difference, but I really wanted to test endurance of the factory edge. I found it most interesting that it held at that working edge for so long and remained effective.
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Re: Z Max vs Fire Hose

#4

Post by Fireman »

I find the Z-Max seemed to work best for me with finishing with the DMT fine bench stone and not a mirror edge. Your results may be better with a slightly toothy edge but still shaving sharp. When your hands can tolerate it, maybe a test redo with a new edge and then another same edge but strops say every 25 cuts to mimic a more realistic life duty instead of a pure torture test. I think the chop&Strop test method will be illuminating.
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The Meat man
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Re: Z Max vs Fire Hose

#5

Post by The Meat man »

I love tests like these! Very impressive work, DFD04!!! :thumbsup:

Also, that is a lot of cutting! Z-Max looking good here. :) Do you have any more fire hose left over, or access to more? I'd be really interested in seeing how other steels compare, cutting that stuff.
- Connor

"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
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sal
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Re: Z Max vs Fire Hose

#6

Post by sal »

Hi Derrick,

Thanx for doing the test and thanx for sharing.

sal
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kennethsime
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Re: Z Max vs Fire Hose

#7

Post by kennethsime »

Great test.
I'm happiest with Micarta and Tool Steel.

Top four in rotation: K390 + GCM PM2, ZCarta Shaman, Crucarta PM2, K390 + GCM Straight Spine Stretch.
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DFD04
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Re: Z Max vs Fire Hose

#8

Post by DFD04 »

Fireman wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:50 pm
I find the Z-Max seemed to work best for me with finishing with the DMT fine bench stone and not a mirror edge. Your results may be better with a slightly toothy edge but still shaving sharp. When your hands can tolerate it, maybe a test redo with a new edge and then another same edge but strops say every 25 cuts to mimic a more realistic life duty instead of a pure torture test. I think the chop&Strop test method will be illuminating.
Honestly…I must admit to a hole in my sharpening knowledge and know how. I have never stropped, nor do I really know how to start. I’m sure there is a huge advantage in the time department for the maintenance of the edge, but I’ve not expended here.

We both know that firefighters often let their blades become super dull and then just stop carrying them. In this way, I wanted to see what an average non knife enthusiast firefighter would expect from this steel.
The Meat man wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:10 pm
I love tests like these! Very impressive work, DFD04!!! :thumbsup:

Also, that is a lot of cutting! Z-Max looking good here. :) Do you have any more fire hose left over, or access to more? I'd be really interested in seeing how other steels compare, cutting that stuff.
Thanks! Yes, I sure do. We have a steady supply of condemned hose, especially during hose testing season. I went through about 2/3’s of a 50’ section doing this test.

I’d love a FB SE K390 to do this test with…like seriously…I would love to test that. Perhaps this test can become my standard for mules and posting here. It’s tough material for sure!
sal wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:25 pm
Hi Derrick,

Thanx for doing the test and thanx for sharing.

sal
Sal, thank you, sir!

It was a lot of fun, and it was really neat that the knife hit an energizer bunny stage and just kept cutting! I’m excited to test other steels with the hose.
kennethsime wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:05 pm
Great test.
Thank you, kindly!
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Re: Z Max vs Fire Hose

#9

Post by Fireman »

Don’t feel bad. I have never met a FF who knew how to sharpen a knife but I have taught quite a few. This experience or lack their of went into my design ethos for a knife for wildland FFs
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Rwstubbz
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Re: Z Max vs Fire Hose

#10

Post by Rwstubbz »

Thanks for the painful research. I wish I could have gotten one, but if I had, I'd be doing things like this to test it out. Do you have any other steels that you could test with the same fire hose to get some baseline\comparison tests in? Have you sharpened the knife yet? It would be interesting to get another test on a fresh edge to see the improvement after removing some of the "burnt edge" from the factory sharpening. I bet that the edge would continue to improve each time you sharpened it for about 3 sharpening and then hit a peak somewhere between the 3rd and 5th sharpening.
Again thanks to you and your calloused hands for all the hard work.
RWS
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DFD04
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Re: Z Max vs Fire Hose

#11

Post by DFD04 »

Rwstubbz wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:56 pm
Thanks for the painful research. I wish I could have gotten one, but if I had, I'd be doing things like this to test it out. Do you have any other steels that you could test with the same fire hose to get some baseline\comparison tests in? Have you sharpened the knife yet? It would be interesting to get another test on a fresh edge to see the improvement after removing some of the "burnt edge" from the factory sharpening. I bet that the edge would continue to improve each time you sharpened it for about 3 sharpening and then hit a peak somewhere between the 3rd and 5th sharpening.
Again thanks to you and your calloused hands for all the hard work.
RWS
Thanks for the reply! I have not sharpened it yet—I’d like to drop the angle down to 12 dps, and try again. I have an edge pro that I’ll use to do that with.

I have a k390 police that is also like to do the same with. That knife is a duty piece currently, but the next time I sharpen it, I’ll give it a shot. That knife is currently at 12 DPS…and it absolutely rocks. It’s held that edge with no sharpening or rolling for months.

The hands are fine now—no soreness left and a few new callouses forming for sure. It would have been easier to have someone hold the other end of the hose to stop it from folding down. No biggie tho—it was a fun Saturday morning.

I really appreciated the stability of doing this with a fixed blade vs a folding knife. Those G10 scales are really functional for sure—they did great.

Hopefully in a few weeks I can do some more testing!
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Re: Z Max vs Fire Hose

#12

Post by Fireman »

A hose test between K390 and Z-Max would be cool.
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Re: Z Max vs Fire Hose

#13

Post by Rwstubbz »

DFD04 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:17 pm
Rwstubbz wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 7:56 pm
Thanks for the painful research. I wish I could have gotten one, but if I had, I'd be doing things like this to test it out. Do you have any other steels that you could test with the same fire hose to get some baseline\comparison tests in? Have you sharpened the knife yet? It would be interesting to get another test on a fresh edge to see the improvement after removing some of the "burnt edge" from the factory sharpening. I bet that the edge would continue to improve each time you sharpened it for about 3 sharpening and then hit a peak somewhere between the 3rd and 5th sharpening.
Again thanks to you and your calloused hands for all the hard work.
RWS
Thanks for the reply! I have not sharpened it yet—I’d like to drop the angle down to 12 dps, and try again. I have an edge pro that I’ll use to do that with.

I have a k390 police that is also like to do the same with. That knife is a duty piece currently, but the next time I sharpen it, I’ll give it a shot. That knife is currently at 12 DPS…and it absolutely rocks. It’s held that edge with no sharpening or rolling for months.

The hands are fine now—no soreness left and a few new callouses forming for sure. It would have been easier to have someone hold the other end of the hose to stop it from folding down. No biggie tho—it was a fun Saturday morning.

I really appreciated the stability of doing this with a fixed blade vs a folding knife. Those G10 scales are really functional for sure—they did great.

Hopefully in a few weeks I can do some more testing!
Absolutely, those would be a great match up. 12dps should stay pretty stable on steels hardened to such a high Rockwell I would think. I know that they can be hardened even further so they shouldn't be too chippy either. That would be an awesome thread. Can't wait to see the results. Thanks for the input.
Rws
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