Wood for scales

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Bolster
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Re: Wood for scales

#21

Post by Bolster »

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Re: Wood for scales

#22

Post by z1r »

Mesquite can be very attractive but also tends to be heavy. Nice thing is it is usually pretty hard. Looking forward to your results. I'll be ordering some standoffs and screws this weekend and hope to start carving some wood scales soon.
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AlexRus
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Re: Wood for scales

#23

Post by AlexRus »

Bolster wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 3:05 pm
Now to wait months (?) and try to get the moisture content down to 7% or so. Not sure how pretty Mesquite will be, but Apricot (too small for Mules) is beautiful orange and highly figured.
Is there a way to accelerate the process of drying the wood?
🤔
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Re: Wood for scales

#24

Post by FullScaler »

[/quote]
Is there a way to accelerate the process of drying the wood?
🤔
[/quote]

A microwave works fairly well but it may cause some warping and twisting. Use the defrost setting and let er rip. Go slow and use multiple cycles with a bit of a rest in between. You are heating up the moisture in the wood to drive it off so you don't want to cook it too hot.

I used to use this often when turning greenish maple burls into bowls, etc. Rough it out and leave it a bit thick. Throw it through a few microwave cycles. Let it sit for a day or two to equalize and then turn it to final dimensions and sand / finish.

It still takes a bit of time but can turn the process into days instead of months / years.
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AlexRus
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Re: Wood for scales

#25

Post by AlexRus »

FullScaler wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 8:35 am

It still takes a bit of time but can turn the process into days instead of months / years.
No warping/twisting?
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Re: Wood for scales

#26

Post by Bolster »

FullScaler wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 8:35 am
A microwave works fairly well ...

That's really interesting. Why not? It's doing what you want: driving the moisture from the wood. I think most any reasonably low-level heat + air circulation would do the trick. I'm leaving my raw chunks of Mesquite spread out in the rafters of my shed, which gets plenty hot in the summer, 120F or so. Currently it's "sopping" wet wood...35%. We'll see how quickly it comes down.
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Re: Wood for scales

#27

Post by Xplorer »

You can also use a regular oven or a toaster oven to accelerate the process if the pieces are small enough. If this is considered it must be done safely.

If you want to try this method, set a fire extinguisher next to your oven and do not leave your oven unattended!!

You'll also want a moisture meter to be able to check your progress so you don't go too far.

Take it as slow as you can to reduce the possibility of distortion. Set the oven between it's lowest setting (which is often "warm") and 225F. 218F is perfect! The flash point of most wood species is 500F, so never try this at high temp.

If the flame comes from the bottom of the oven, place one oven rack in the bottom position and place a cooking sheet on the rack to catch anything that might fall. Put your wood on the middle rack.

If you have a convection fan in the oven, turn it on.

Dry initially for 1 hour and test moisture.

If not to the desired dryness level, put it back in the oven and re-test every 15 minutes thereafter.

The drying time will vary based on the moisture content of the wood to begin with, as well as the density of the wood.
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AlexRus
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Re: Wood for scales

#28

Post by AlexRus »

Bolster wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 10:12 am
FullScaler wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 8:35 am
A microwave works fairly well ...

That's really interesting. Why not? It's doing what you want: driving the moisture from the wood. I think most any reasonably low-level heat + air circulation would do the trick. I'm leaving my raw chunks of Mesquite spread out in the rafters of my shed, which gets plenty hot in the summer, 120F or so. Currently it's "sopping" wet wood...35%. We'll see how quickly it comes down.
Interesting. Please, let us know how it eventually turns out.
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Re: Wood for scales

#29

Post by WoodBee »

AlexRus wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 7:09 am
Bolster wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 3:05 pm
Now to wait months (?) and try to get the moisture content down to 7% or so. Not sure how pretty Mesquite will be, but Apricot (too small for Mules) is beautiful orange and highly figured.
Is there a way to accelerate the process of drying the wood?
🤔

I think oven drying is also a thing, but if the wood you are drying isn't too thick then it shouldn't take (months/years) long. Whatever drying method you choose, it helps to clamp it to prevent warping. Also coating the ends with wax helps prevent cracking
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Re: Wood for scales

#30

Post by Bolster »

WoodBee wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 1:40 pm
I think oven drying is also a thing, but if the wood you are drying isn't too thick then it shouldn't take (months/years) long. Whatever drying method you choose, it helps to clamp it to prevent warping. Also coating the ends with wax helps prevent cracking

Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong, but I want the wood to move and warp while it's drying so it "gets that out of its system" before I cut to final shape. I know that "stickering" wood (stacking large piles of wood with spacers) is a clamping method for long boards, but for a few 4x8x2 inch chunks of wood...dunno. Planning to let them do what they want to do while drying. I coated ends with urethane, I think paint/urethane/wax/varnish/glue all get the job done of not letting the wood dry too quickly and checker.

Would be interested if someone tries an oven or microwave to dry...
Last edited by Bolster on Sat May 08, 2021 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wood for scales

#31

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TomAiello
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Re: Wood for scales

#32

Post by TomAiello »

I did some general testing with a toaster oven and a scale. I don't have a way to measure moisture down that low, so I'm just weighing and looking for the point at which the wood stops losing weight.

With oak and maple I'm seeing diminishing returns around 4 hours in a standard toaster oven and down around 1 hour 15 minutes in a convection toaster oven (set to 225 in both cases, and measured right at 225 with a good thermometer).

I'm pretty surprised at how much faster the convection function seem to dry the wood.

I have no idea what happens after drying if you don't stabilize, though. I'm storing my dried wood in sealed dry bags with desiccant, and stabilizing it fairly soon.

The convection toaster oven is definitely the best method I've found. It was the one that came out of our kitchen when my wife got a new one with an 'air fry' function. The only thing to be aware of is that the newer toaster ovens have an auto shut off, so if you aren't paying attention they can shut down and you have to start over. Mine has an auto shut off at 4 hours that I haven't been able to disable. Fortunately, 4 hours is much longer than I need to run it. And to be fair, it's a safety feature anyway.

Maybe it was Xplorer making me cautious, but I built a cinderblock 'house' for the toaster oven (which I also use for setting the stabilizing resin) and I'm pretty confident I've limited the fire danger. I actually built a campfire in the 'house' to test it out (it's in the basement of my office) and aside from having to set up ventilation fans for that testing, I was able to run a pretty big fire in there without having it spread. My older daughter thinks I'm crazy, but my younger daughter is more of a pyro like me, so she loved the process--especially when I let her use the fire extinguisher. :)

Edit to add: I'm pretty sure the numbers will vary a lot depending on your normal conditions. I live at about 4000 ft MSL in a dry (high desert) climate, so my wood is probably pretty dry to start with.

Second edit: I also regularly weigh every piece of wood before drying, and then weigh it again at 15 minute intervals when I think it's done, so that I 'overshoot' by 15 minutes (2 successive measurements with no weight loss) before I call it dry. Not sure if that's good enough, but it's working for me so far.
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Re: Wood for scales

#33

Post by FullScaler »

AlexRus wrote:
Fri May 07, 2021 9:38 am

No warping/twisting?
It will warp and twist a bit but in a small chunk for scales I wouldn't expect it to move too much. One nice thing about the microwave is that it heats from the inside out opposed to an oven which heats from the outside in.

In wood turning I found this to dramatically reduce cracking and splitting although, again, in a small piece of wood for scales I am not sure how much this would matter.
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Re: Wood for scales

#34

Post by Xplorer »

Bolster wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 10:04 am
Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong, but I want the wood to move and warp while it's drying so it "gets that out of its system" before I cut to final shape. ..
You're right that once it moves and warps in whatever way it's not likely to move much more and you can just square it up at that point. But, if you're not planning to stabilize the wood you could end up with gaps and cracks larger than you might prefer. In the case of a knife handle, the reason drying slowly is preferred is it let's you achieve the same dryness level without any of the cracking that might occur during warping if you speed up the process.
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Re: Wood for scales

#35

Post by Xplorer »

TomAiello wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 11:00 am
...
I have no idea what happens after drying if you don't stabilize, though. I'm storing my dried wood in sealed dry bags with desiccant, and stabilizing it fairly soon.
If you wanted to use them without stabilizing you should let them sit in open air for a week or two now so that they can equalize with your local humidity before you shape them or mount them.

If you want to stabilize them and you think the moisture level in your scales is currently lower than the humidity level in your area, go ahead and keep them in the sealed bags until you're ready to put them into the stabilizing tank.
TomAiello wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 11:00 am
Maybe it was Xplorer making me cautious, but I built a cinderblock 'house' for the toaster oven (which I also use for setting the stabilizing resin) and I'm pretty confident I've limited the fire danger....
:p :p As much as I DO NOT EVER want to encourage anyone to make decisions based on fear, I am very glad to hear you are taking your safety and the security of your home seriously :) :) . Well done!! :D

In the past 6 years I've personally been aware of 2 knife makers that have lost their homes after a garage fire got out of control. Seeing the tragic results and the devastating impact on the lives of their families has helped me understand just how easily and how fast things can get out of control. To be specific, in both cases they knocked over a quenching oil container after dropping a red-hot blade. This is much more dangerous than putting wood in an oven of course. Nonetheless, their examples have taught me a lot about the critical importance of good safety precautions and I want to encourage anyone working in their garage to take all necessary precautions as well. This includes air quality precautions to protect your lungs, eye protection to save your vision, fire safety to protect your home and more. There's never going to be a knife handle worth the price of a home and everything it contains, and nothing we can make will ever be worth dying of lung cancer.

Keep taking your safety seriously. :)
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Bolster
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Re: Wood for scales

#36

Post by Bolster »

Xplorer wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 12:52 pm
You're right that once it moves and warps in whatever way it's not likely to move much more and you can just square it up at that point. But, if you're not planning to stabilize the wood you could end up with gaps and cracks larger than you might prefer. In the case of a knife handle, the reason drying slowly is preferred is it let's you achieve the same dryness level without any of the cracking that might occur during warping if you speed up the process.

Thanks. Yes, I am interested in non-stabilized wood because the low weight of wood is part of my attraction to it as a scale material. I don't want to "heavy up" the wood with a resin, if not needed.
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Re: Wood for scales

#37

Post by standy99 »

I would remove the urethane and any bark as both these slow the process out.

Another way to help wood for scales dry quicker is just handle them. I have dried timber for scales just cutting wet 20% proud and keeping together with elastic bands and holding them whilst watching TV for a few weeks. They dry out quickly this way.

Then I would soak in Danish oil for a week in a sealed container.

Sand, soak again then attach.

Not that scientific but has worked on refurbished wooden handled butchers knives.
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Re: Wood for scales

#38

Post by austrian_spyder_fan »

TomAiello wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 1:55 pm
You can make a wood handle from 1.5" x 5". I prefer 3/8" to make more 3d contours, but 1/4" works too (especially if you are using a liner).

If it's your first time out, you might find it's more comfortable to work with something slightly larger, and (at least in the USA) 2" x 6" is a pretty common scale size.

I've bought some really nice stabilized wood to work with on Etsy, sold by sellers in (mostly eastern) Europe. I've also bought some not very well stabilized stuff (one seller in Russia, and one in the USA which has since disappeared from Etsy). I have bought from 10 or 12 sellers at this point, and my experiences have mostly been good.

Most of the USA knife supply websites sell stabilized wood as well, but the really artistic pieces are mostly on Etsy (and have individual photos of the actual pieces you are buying).
He Tom,

thank you for your input.
So 1,5 x 5 inch in square whould be enough? and thickness 1/4 to 3/8 ? right?

regards
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Re: Wood for scales

#39

Post by TomAiello »

1.5 x 5 will work.

2 x 5 gives you more room for error.

I prefer 3/8 because I like to be able to sand down a bit, and I prefer my fixed blade handles on the thick side.

If I'm using a liner (which I usually do), then 1/4 is fine.
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