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Model request : Pry-Byrd - specialised knife w/ blade for light prying

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:30 am
by Araignee
Yes, it's that time-tested, controversial topic again :winking-tongue

So... I keep ruining my blades' tips (more specifically the edges) trying to pry open food cans, such as this one :

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Typically the metal cap is screwed too tightly to the glass, so to open it I need to either punch a hole in the cap (but rust will eventually form, and the food will no longer be protected by an airtight seal) or pry from the sides - damaging my blade in the process.

So what would solve my issue would be a cheap, small knife with a blade made for prying.

For the record, another forumer mentionned the need to separate frozen food with a thin enough prying tool, a need which an actual pry bar wouldn't address.

A quick search returned an article from 2016 entitled 10 knives you can pry with. That's a useful collection of references, however there are several issues, given that some models either :
  • Don't exist anymore
  • Are too pricey
  • Feature a prying part which is too large
  • Just feature a pry bar beside a normal blade
  • Are just a pry bar with a sharpened side
Then I found other models which don't exactly fit my needs either.

The Benchmade Boost 591BK is a folding knife which is good, but a relatively big (21cm open) and expensive (170€) :

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The TOPS Mini Pry Knife MPK01 is a fixed blade knife, that is relatively big (20cm open) and expensive (150€+) :

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The Mantis MT7.2 B looks like a better fit, given it has nice steel (S30V), nice G10 handles, and is much cheaper (80$). However it's also on the relatively bigger side (20cm open), its ergonomics aren't the best (small tabs on the blade, hardly accessible liner lock), and also I don't this it's available outside of the USA.

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Therefore my proposal is for Spyderco to make a Pry-Byrd based on the Robin 2.

The reasons for this are multiple :
  • Byrd is a cost-conscious brand which can release affordable knives
  • Hence customers will be less apprehensive using a knife as a prying tool (even if they ruin it, it won't be too costly)
  • The Robin 2 is a successful platform whose compact size and ergonomics are perfect for a carry-everywhere, light duty prying tool
  • Most of the R&D is done (see below) so additional research into the matter shouldn't be too expensive
As to how the Robin 2's modified blad could look like : forumers have been using the Byrd Wings and the Byrd Rescue 2 to pry, so perhaps the new Robin 2 Wharncliffe's blade could be used as a base ? It could be made thicker overall, and perhaps even more towards the tip. The tip could also be made blunt and/or clipped to a tiny extent.

Re: Model request : Pry-Byrd - specialised knife w/ blade for light prying

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:50 pm
by sal
Hi Araignee,

Typically, these types or designs are not big sellers, so the demand might be in question. I'll watch the thread,

sal

Re: Model request : Pry-Byrd - specialised knife w/ blade for light prying

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:45 pm
by JRinFL
I'd rather see a secondary pry blade added to some models. Non-locking could work if the design was right.

Re: Model request : Pry-Byrd - specialised knife w/ blade for light prying

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:58 pm
by Cl1ff
From my experience and the testing I’ve seen, the tip of a knife using steel about as tough as CPM154 will handle some pretty sketchy prying into wood without snapping so long as the blade is ~1/8 inch thick ~1/4 behind the tip.

However, it sounds like what you need is something that also has good edge stability.
That can be achieved by a thicker edge or a stable steel, or both.

I’m all for new Byrd models. I’ve even sketched a few knife designs to be resistant to the occasional prying abuse. It’s a use that I think is simply normal for many people, so it’s natural to look for a solution.

What knives have you been using until now?
Knowing that would make it easier to give suggestions for already existing knives that may solve your problem because we’d have a reference point for what isn’t working.
If you’re interested, of course.

Re: Model request : Pry-Byrd - specialised knife w/ blade for light prying

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:05 pm
by Cl1ff
JRinFL wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:45 pm
I'd rather see a secondary pry blade added to some models. Non-locking could work if the design was right.
I actually like this too, so an initial suggestion in light of this is the Spyderco Clipitool. Either the Rescue or Standard versions depending on your preferences. https://www.spyderco.com/catalog/detail ... escue/1122

Re: Model request : Pry-Byrd - specialised knife w/ blade for light prying

Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:09 pm
by JRinFL
Cl1ff wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:05 pm
JRinFL wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:45 pm
I'd rather see a secondary pry blade added to some models. Non-locking could work if the design was right.
I actually like this too, so an initial suggestion in light of this is the Spyderco Clipitool. Either the Rescue or Standard versions depending on your preferences. https://www.spyderco.com/catalog/detail ... escue/1122
Yes, that would work with the hook being replaced by a dedicated pry tool.

Re: Model request : Pry-Byrd - specialised knife w/ blade for light prying

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:31 am
by Araignee
sal wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:50 pm
Hi Araignee,

Typically, these types or designs are not big sellers, so the demand might be in question. I'll watch the thread,

sal
Thanks for chiming in Sal, I understand that sales potential would play an important part in the equation.

I think that, at least in the online community (which admittedly is relatively small), the stigma surrounding one's knife to perform prying operations may also be a commercial hindrance.

Re: Model request : Pry-Byrd - specialised knife w/ blade for light prying

Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:47 am
by Araignee
Cl1ff wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:58 pm
From my experience and the testing I’ve seen, the tip of a knife using steel about as tough as CPM154 will handle some pretty sketchy prying into wood without snapping so long as the blade is ~1/8 inch thick ~1/4 behind the tip.

However, it sounds like what you need is something that also has good edge stability.
That can be achieved by a thicker edge or a stable steel, or both.

I’m all for new Byrd models. I’ve even sketched a few knife designs to be resistant to the occasional prying abuse. It’s a use that I think is simply normal for many people, so it’s natural to look for a solution.

What knives have you been using until now?
Knowing that would make it easier to give suggestions for already existing knives that may solve your problem because we’d have a reference point for what isn’t working.
If you’re interested, of course.
Glad to learn that we're pretty much on the same page Cl1ff, and I'd love to see some of your sketches assuming you're willing to share them publicly 👍

As you say it's a natural reflex to use one's knife to pry on the go, thus it'd make sense to that this actual use case into account when designing a blade for EDC duties, let's say. (Of course this can conflict with other EDC needs, such as producing very thin slices).

Up to now I've mainly ruined used my Meadowlark 2, though it's the Robin 2 that I'm more comfortable with - and which IMHO is also best suited for this kind of task. You don't want a blade that is too long when prying.

As a stop gap, I've been looking at procuring a Swiss army knife with a punch tool, which could be used to pry.
This video is interesting because the reviewer presented a bunch of other swiss knives with chisel-like tools, and the particular tip below looks like the sort of tip I'd like to see on a Pry-Byrd (though obviously the whole blade couldn't be as thick !) :

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Re: Model request : Pry-Byrd - specialised knife w/ blade for light prying

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:34 pm
by Kale
I would be very interested in this. There also seems to be renewed appreciation in the EDC community for "sharpened pry bars" such as the Benchmade Osborn 940 and Emerson A-100. Granted, those knives have a pointed tip, not a literal prybar tip (I'd go for either). I believe the prybar-tip design is called a "razel"? Not many models out there... and many of them pricey and impractical.

Let's face it, handymen use their pocket knives for everything imaginable, so why not design one with this in mind? Byrd would be the perfect brand to execute this type of knife and get it out there to the masses.

Re: Model request : Pry-Byrd - specialised knife w/ blade for light prying

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:16 pm
by cody6268
I have some rounded tip EMT-style knives. They're really weird in EDC. I love an electrician's knife because of its locking secondary screwdriver blade. I own over a dozen, mostly from American makes (especially Camillus--which accounts for about half). But, I'm not a fan of the liner lock (a few companies made lockback electrician's knives, but they never caught on--Buck, Sabre, SOG to name a few). And they're not one-hand opening.

I propose an electrician's style knife with dual locking and OHO PE and screwdriver blades. I feel that for cost-effectiveness, it could be based on the Dyad/Wings series and as many of their existing parts as possible. Plus, the dual lockback would make it far easier to use than the traditional frame.

Here are some existing ideas:

Remington Radio Electrician's Knife. Ad is dated 1929. I think this was the first model of electrician knife Remington produced.

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Klein Tools (Japan, Moki I think) 44008. The screwdriver is one hand opening, but doesn't lock. Best I can tell, they never actually made it. I have never seen a new or used one offered for sale.

https://www.kleintools.com/catalog/mult ... crewdriver

Image

Re: Model request : Pry-Byrd - specialised knife w/ blade for light prying

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:29 pm
by Bloke
I pry with folders if I absolutely have to and only with the spine but I don’t open the knife to do so.

Re: Model request : Pry-Byrd - specialised knife w/ blade for light prying

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:48 pm
by RustyIron
Araignee wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:30 am
Yes, it's that time-tested, controversial topic again

Trust me, there is NO controversy. I think we can ALL agree that whatever it is in that jar, you should just leave it there REGARDLESS of what knife you're carrying.

:spiral-eyes

The web page you referenced mentioned the Kershaw Barge. It's different from the others in that it has a regular blade, and the prybar is on the handle. I thought it was cool and bought a couple, but was never so excited that I carried it. I gave one away, and the other just sits here in a drawer.

Since it's discontinued, we can only surmise that Sal is spot on, and these types of knives don't sell.
IMG_4348.jpg

Re: Model request : Pry-Byrd - specialised knife w/ blade for light prying

Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:53 am
by sal
I'm open to discuss viable solution. I think it must be a single blade with a pry capable tip or??? A second blade really jacks up the cost. We can push the envelope and put the pry bar somewhere else??

sal

Re: Model request : Pry-Byrd - specialised knife w/ blade for light prying

Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:24 am
by Araignee
Great additional contributions to the discussion, thank you all for your inputs :hugging-face

The cheapest option, as Sal says, would be to take a stock Byrd model and then "just" swap its regular blade for a pry-capable one.

The 2nd cheapest option would be to add a fixed prying bar in the butt, à la Kershaw Barge.
But this adds to the overall length of the knife, and more importantly, can potentially make it uncomfortable or even dangerous to carry in the pocket, since it adds a pointy spot. Perhaps these factors contributed to its commercial failure.

The 3rd option would be to fit a retractable pry blade. A full length one would be relatively expensive, but perhaps a small one could fit the bill ?
Basically that would amount to taking the Swiss Army Knife / Clipitool route.

The Clipitool C175 is the closest there is in the Spyderco line, since it features a screwdriver which can serve as a prying tool, and has an MSRP close to that of the Robin 2 (53$ vs 43$) :
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However the C175 is smaller and, notably, is a slip-joint. Also, its wide screwdriver end (due to the Spyderhole) could be limiting in some situations.

To address this, I'm wondering if it'd be possible to integrate a small prying blade within the backspacer.
Unfortunately it wouldn't be locking (or could a liner lock be installed ?) but it could feature a notched joint like those of the Tern and UKPK. And at least its main blade would still be lockable.

Below are edited screenshots from a Nick Shabaz video where he dismantled a Ti Meadowlark 2 - not representative of the FRN models (which feature liners), I know, but I just needed a picture clearly showing the backspacer.

Version 1 - minimal changes, i.e. most economical : features a miniature prying blade with a half-Spyderhole, which does not protrude from the rest of the handle. Instead, there is a cutout in the handle and backspacer.
Image

Version 2 : same as Version 1 above, except the middle spacer has been moved down, allowing for a longer prying blade.
Image

These crude drawing display a very tiny prying blade, however if you compare it to that of the C175, you'll see that it could let the user reach for deeper and narrower cavities, thanks to its narrower footprint and longer length. Hence I surmise that it may remain useful despite its micro size.

But I'll readily admit that it isn't easy to realise just how far-fetched the above musing is, without having an actual prototype in my hands :thinking
My intuition is that it shouldn't compromise the overall structural integrity of the knife.
However, perhaps the dimensions involved are unrealistic ?

(Off-topic : it's in cases like this one where I wish I had 3D designing/printing skills, to actually try and materialise my proposal to gauge its merits or plain stupidity. I really need to start getting into this !)

Re: Model request : Pry-Byrd - specialised knife w/ blade for light prying

Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:28 pm
by TomAiello
Does anyone already offer a pry bar backspacer?

I know I've seen 'ring' backspacers. There has to be someone offering a pry variant somewhere.

Re: Model request : Pry-Byrd - specialised knife w/ blade for light prying

Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:36 pm
by rangefinder
TomAiello wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:28 pm
Does anyone already offer a pry bar backspacer?

I know I've seen 'ring' backspacers. There has to be someone offering a pry variant somewhere.

5x5 has a backspacer for Endura/Delica models with a flat blade screw driver that they claim can be used for light prying:

https://5x5combatsolutions.com/shop/ols ... b-exo-tool

EDIT: I always thought the easy to change backspacers (lanyard hole, screwdriver, cap lifter) on the Kershaw Agile (https://kershaw.kaiusa.com/agile.html) was interesting. The knife is designed so you don't have to take the whole thing apart just to change the backspacer. But it's a frame lock, so the backspacer isn't part of the lock mechanism.

Re: Model request : Pry-Byrd - specialised knife w/ blade for light prying

Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:17 pm
by kodai78
The Civivi Crit is $75. Has a blade and a tool which is primarily for prying/screwdriver. Nitro V steel. Blade and implement lock I think. I would hate to break a Spydie prying. The Civivi, not so much. I have plenty of tools to pry with so I don’t think I need a Spyderco/Byrd prybar. However diminutive and special.