Re-examining 9Cr18Mo as an option

Discuss Spyderco's byrd knives.
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araneae
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Re: Re-examining 9Cr18Mo as an option

#21

Post by araneae »

10Cr15MoV is also starting to appear, which looks like a Chinese VG-10.
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Re: Re-examining 9Cr18Mo as an option

#22

Post by Salty Dog »

Ive already had good size rust spots appear on my Spyderco resilience blade and the area between my pocket clip and body on my Byrd Crossbill.
I realise the scales and clip on the crossbill wouldn't be 8cr but im still surprised.
Havnt even used the crossbill hardly and have not taken either near the salt water.
For knives only a few weeks old, its a bit disappointing to see how fast they rust, even when they have been babied.
Don't want to sound like a whiner but its not good enough for such a great company like Spyderco imo.
A lot of people would buy these lower end knives because they cant afford the higher end knives, they would be using them in all types of conditions.
Ive not even used them outside and they are rusting.
There absolutely needs to be a steel upgrade to something more corrosion resistant.
Its my own fault for risking this steel but you live and learn.
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Re: Re-examining 9Cr18Mo as an option

#23

Post by ugaarguy »

8Cr13 has too little Cr left free in solution to resist corrosion in coastal environments with salt suspended in the humid air. I've had AUS-8 and 8Cr13 get rust spots from the mild chlorination of city water in the US Midwest if accidentally left in a steamy bathroom after a hot shower. I'd like to see a move to something like 9Cr18 or even 7Cr17 so that the blade steel will have a higher Cr to C ratio, leaving more Cr in solution for rust resistance. Getting rid of liners would also help, but I realize that's a huge investment in new handle molds.
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Re: Re-examining 9Cr18Mo as an option

#24

Post by David R »

Bemo wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:51 pm
Hate to drag up an old thread (*cough* no not really) I just watched a video from Outpost76 testing a couple examples and heat treated properly it seems like a very good steel. Better than any of the imported D2 and rivaling M390 tests. Granted it's cardboard but it looks very promising. I would love to see what Spyderco could do in either the Byrd or the value line.
This seems like a stretch. I only have a small amount of use on my 9Cr Mule and have only sharpened it twice. I don't recall it having anything like M390 edge retention. If I recall it was also a little odd to sharpen at lower grits. My diamond stone wasn't biting into it as expected. This could be an anomaly and would be easy for me to check against a couple of other steels.

Cedric & Ada got 250 rope cuts on the 9Cr Mule with a 17 degree polished edge. 20CV Mule with the same edge did 650 cuts, M390 did 680 cuts. Almost 3x better edge retention for 20CV/M390.
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Re: Re-examining 9Cr18Mo as an option

#25

Post by Bemo »

Thanks for this, I should have taken a look at Cedric & Ada's spreadsheet. I like the work he does. I've not tried 9Cr myself.
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Re: Re-examining 9Cr18Mo as an option

#26

Post by ABX2011 »

I don't have much experience with either 8cr or 9cr but it's interesting that 9cr has a much better reputation amongst youtube reviewers and forumites.
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Re: Re-examining 9Cr18Mo as an option

#27

Post by Josh1973 »

I would love to see 9CR18MOV become the flagship Byrd line steel due to improved corrosion resistance alone.
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Re: Re-examining 9Cr18Mo as an option

#28

Post by chronovore »

Hi. New to the forum but I've explored this steel quite a bit.

9Cr18Mov is often underrated due to some companies running it soft (and association with other members of that series). It's actually decent. WE seems to have perfected the heat treatment for 9Cr18Mov. The Civivi and Sencut knives that use it can perform at least as well as most of the budget D2. Unlike D2 though, it's very resistant to corrosion.

Artisan's new AR-RPM9 is a PM steel based on 9Cr18Mov. It's still relatively new and exclusive to Artisan. Toughness should be improved and there have been reports of it stropping up nicely. However, early testing by Outpost76 did not show an increase in edge retention. There, performance was on par with 9Cr18Mov from Real Steel and nowhere near as good as 9Cr18Mov from WE. So the question is whether Artisan has figured out the best heat treatment for this new steel.

The earlier comment about 10Cr15 is correct. Looking at the chemical composition, it is effectively Chinese VG-10. I don't have personal experience with 10Cr15 but I imagine it would behave similarly. Obviously, heat treatment matters.

In any case, any of these steels would be a welcome step up from 8Cr13Mov. I'd also be happy with 12C27 or 14C28N. Kizer's budget brand (Tangram) uses Acuto 440. It's a Japanese steel that's similar in composition to 9Cr18Mov. Even with reports of some of the Tangram knives being run soft, it also seems to be a solid step up from 8Cr13Mov. I've put a lot of use on my Tangram Santa Fe and it holds a noticeably better edge than my Meadowlark 2.
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Re: Re-examining 9Cr18Mo as an option

#29

Post by Josh Crutchley »

chronovore wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:41 pm
Hi. New to the forum but I've explored this steel quite a bit.

9Cr18Mov is often underrated due to some companies running it soft (and association with other members of that series). It's actually decent. WE seems to have perfected the heat treatment for 9Cr18Mov. The Civivi and Sencut knives that use it can perform at least as well as most of the budget D2. Unlike D2 though, it's very resistant to corrosion.

Artisan's new AR-RPM9 is a PM steel based on 9Cr18Mov. It's still relatively new and exclusive to Artisan. Toughness should be improved and there have been reports of it stropping up nicely. However, early testing by Outpost76 did not show an increase in edge retention. There, performance was on par with 9Cr18Mov from Real Steel and nowhere near as good as 9Cr18Mov from WE. So the question is whether Artisan has figured out the best heat treatment for this new steel.

The earlier comment about 10Cr15 is correct. Looking at the chemical composition, it is effectively Chinese VG-10. I don't have personal experience with 10Cr15 but I imagine it would behave similarly. Obviously, heat treatment matters.

In any case, any of these steels would be a welcome step up from 8Cr13Mov. I'd also be happy with 12C27 or 14C28N. Kizer's budget brand (Tangram) uses Acuto 440. It's a Japanese steel that's similar in composition to 9Cr18Mov. Even with reports of some of the Tangram knives being run soft, it also seems to be a solid step up from 8Cr13Mov. I've put a lot of use on my Tangram Santa Fe and it holds a noticeably better edge than my Meadowlark 2.
Spyderco uses 12c27 on the Bug and Grasshopper knives. I would love to see them do a run of 14c28n as it's one of my favorites. Never tried 9-10cr so can't comment but the composition should lead to a higher attainable hardness and improved corrosion resistance.
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sal
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Re: Re-examining 9Cr18Mo as an option

#30

Post by sal »

Hi Chronovore,

Welcome to our form.

Thanx for the thread, we'll look into 9Cr and 10Cr. The last time we used 9Cr, warping was an issue, but that was a decade ago.

sal
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Re: Re-examining 9Cr18Mo as an option

#31

Post by chronovore »

sal wrote:
Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:50 pm
Hi Chronovore,

Welcome to our form.

Thanx for the thread, we'll look into 9Cr and 10Cr. The last time we used 9Cr, warping was an issue, but that was a decade ago.

sal
Thanks, Sal. You are very welcome. I think it's awesome that you take the time to read posts and participate in the forum.

Besides the test videos from Outpost76, I've really come around on 9Cr18Mov personally. The corrosion resistance is excellent. Edge retention from the WE-made knives is exceptional. (It's a bit like Buck's 420HC versus average 420HC.) Of course, the average 9Cr18Mov like we see from Real Steel is already decent. If your Chinese team could even hit middle of the road for 9Cr18Mov, it could be a game-changer for the Byrd series or knives like the Tenacious.

Thanks again!
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Re: Re-examining 9Cr18Mo as an option

#32

Post by S-3 ranch »

9cr18mov is basically 440b ? Correct me if I’m wrong
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Re: Re-examining 9Cr18Mo as an option

#33

Post by chronovore »

S-3 ranch wrote:
Thu Jul 01, 2021 12:20 pm
9cr18mov is basically 440b ? Correct me if I’m wrong
No. They are different in composition. Versus 440B, 9Cr18Mov has more chromium, more molybdenum, and added vanadium. Each of these steels has a given range for carbon with 440B listed as 0.75-0.95 and 9Cr18Mov listed as 0.85-0.95. It's been several years since I last used a knife in 440B but if memory serves, today's average 9Cr18Mov is better. With a good heat treatment like we've seen from WE, it's a lot better.
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Re: Re-examining 9Cr18Mo as an option

#34

Post by Gtscotty »

ugaarguy wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 10:59 am
8Cr13 has too little Cr left free in solution to resist corrosion in coastal environments with salt suspended in the humid air. I've had AUS-8 and 8Cr13 get rust spots from the mild chlorination of city water in the US Midwest if accidentally left in a steamy bathroom after a hot shower. I'd like to see a move to something like 9Cr18 or even 7Cr17 so that the blade steel will have a higher Cr to C ratio, leaving more Cr in solution for rust resistance. Getting rid of liners would also help, but I realize that's a huge investment in new handle molds.
I probably shouldn't complain as I'm trying to get away from buying PRC made knives (I'll buy ROC all day), but 8Cr13 has seemed fairly corrosion prone to me, maybe along the lines of D2, potentially worse, with worse edge holding to boot. I would like to see Spyderco upgrade the Byrd line to steel parity with most of the popular PRC makers today who seem to have standardized on steels like 9Cr18, D2, AR-RPM9, etc.
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