new Byrd Crossbill, stock edge half sharpened

Discuss Spyderco's byrd knives.
f15k13
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new Byrd Crossbill, stock edge half sharpened

Postby f15k13 » Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:40 am

I recently ordered a crossbill, and I was going to sharpen it on my sharpmaker when I noticed something that struck me as odd. every knife I've owned has a V shaped blade, with metal removed on both sides, meeting in the middle to form a cutting edge. the knife that I am holding has a half V shape, with metal removed from only one side, to make a shape that I will attempt to replicate below

I/

where most knives are more like this.
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I have seen serrations half sharpened like this, and the sharpmaker manual mentions it, but never along the full blade.

Is this normal for a Byrd Crossbill, and what should I do to sharpen it?

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Postby Donut » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:07 am

I don't think that is typical I'll have to take a look at my Crossbill. It might be a new model based on all the requests for a chisel grind model.

Could you take some pictures of the knife? A (macro) shot of each side would help a lot.
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Postby f15k13 » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:46 pm

Image
Image

sorry My camera isn't great. it barely takes pictures. I hope you can see what I am talking about.

the edge I see here would seem to fit the description of a "Chisel edge"

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Postby Blerv » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:14 pm

Serrated knives (even combo-edge) have a chisel ground secondary bevel as the wheels have to be pushed in to form the teeth. As I understand it.

Your blade looks exactly like my Dad's Flight. It's a bit more of a chore to sharpen (for me) than a traditional secondary bevel. I just lay my 701 profile stones flat and hit the front edge at a strange angle, then flip it over and hit the back edge and teeth. Over time I think they are developing a bit of a micro bevel so taking your time instead of rushing would be smart. :)
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Postby Pockets » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:17 pm

Every knife I've ever seen that had both plain edge and teeth looked like that. Otherwise, the teeth wouldn't be in line with the plain edge.
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Postby f15k13 » Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:05 pm

I bought a sog magnadot (please don't leave me spyderco, all those other knives mean nothing to me, I swear!) half serrated, and the straight part is a V shape, while the teeth are half-sharpened.

under careful inspection, the straight edge and the teeth are ever so slightly out of line, but the difference is so tiny that I never noticed, and never would have if Pockets hadn't pointed it out. I couldn't see it ever making a difference for my various EDC tasks.

seriously, that tiny, tiny difference is worth putting a chisel grind on the whole blade?


actually, what are the pros and cons of keeping that chisel grind?

and how much work would I be looking at putting a 40° edge on it with the sharpmaker?

how about the sharpmaker's diamond rods?

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Postby Blerv » Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:05 pm

Is it sharp? Does the rest matter? I don't know how SOG does it but it sounds a tad different and I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing but it won't change your grind.

I understand this is just how Spyderco does SE. You could reset the bevel on the plain edge. It would make sharpening a tad tougher.
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Postby f15k13 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:28 am

Blerv wrote:Is it sharp? Does the rest matter?
Yes, it does matter if my knife is going to hold that sharp edge for any length of time, or if the extra-fine angle caused by the chisel grind is going to cause my edge to chip, snap, or roll

if a chisel grind was so great, everyone would use it

there must be some major downside.

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Postby defenestrate » Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:07 am

Many thousands of owners of CE and SE blades don't mind the chisel grind on their knives. I prefer full SE or PE to combo edges usually, but it's not because those combo edges aren't quite sharp. They will definitely do the job and I am confident that if there were performance issues in the 20+ years they've been used, Spyderco would have corrected or discontinued this design. Keeping the chisel edge on the unserrated part will make it so that if you slip between the serrated and plain areas, your edge will not bind on the first serrated teeth as much as a finer grind on the plain edge would. Big difference in real life usage.
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Postby Blerv » Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:06 am

f15k13 wrote:Yes, it does matter if my knife is going to hold that sharp edge for any length of time, or if the extra-fine angle caused by the chisel grind is going to cause my edge to chip, snap, or roll

if a chisel grind was so great, everyone would use it

there must be some major downside.
Emerson Knives are huge fans of a chisel grind and those cost WAY more than a $20 Byrd. Many people here have pleaded for a chisel ground Spyderco in plain edge for years. There is tons of material on the pros and cons of this grind, you might dig around a bit.

According to many Spyderco make the best serrations in the world. Many others have "borrowed" the pattern they have spent time perfecting. They were doing serrated knives back before some brands were created. In this case the grind methodology allows proper scallop edge geometry for sharpness and wear.

You could always sell your knife and buy a plain edge version with a proper v-grind. That or just keep using a perfectly functional tool once properly sharpened. You could also reset the bevel yourself and let us know if it works better. If you can't just mail it in for a factory job, you just pay for return shipping.
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Postby f15k13 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:33 am

I think I will carry this knife with the chisel grind on it for a couple of months, to see if the edge retention vs performance tradeoff is worth it.

so far this knife has passed through every material I have put it against as if it were butter. I haven't been chopping wood with it or anything, but it feels like it's doing better than any of my other knives. That includes my only other spyderco, the Tenacious. (I'm new to spyderco's and on a budget, but everyone starts somewhere, right?) I assume the difference is the fact that the shape of this blade works really really well with the smaller edge angle that the chisel grind allows/creates.

I guess if I'm going to be keeping this grind for a while, I'm going to need to know how to go about sharpening it on the 204 sharpmaker. Unfortunately I have no other sharpening tools, so I'll have to use the sharpmaker alone if possable.

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Postby chuck_roxas45 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:03 pm

f15k13 wrote:I think I will carry this knife with the chisel grind on it for a couple of months, to see if the edge retention vs performance tradeoff is worth it.

so far this knife has passed through every material I have put it against as if it were butter. I haven't been chopping wood with it or anything, but it feels like it's doing better than any of my other knives. That includes my only other spyderco, the Tenacious. (I'm new to spyderco's and on a budget, but everyone starts somewhere, right?) I assume the difference is the fact that the shape of this blade works really really well with the smaller edge angle that the chisel grind allows/creates.

I guess if I'm going to be keeping this grind for a while, I'm going to need to know how to go about sharpening it on the 204 sharpmaker. Unfortunately I have no other sharpening tools, so I'll have to use the sharpmaker alone if possable.
Sharpen one side on the 40 degree setting(the side with the scallops), on the corners of the rods, and the other side on the 30 degree setting, also on the corners. A 3:1 ratio should be good. 3 strokes on the scalloped side for every 1 stroke on the non scalloped side.

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Postby f15k13 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:31 pm

chuck_roxas45 wrote:Sharpen one side on the 40 degree setting(the side with the scallops), on the corners of the rods, and the other side on the 30 degree setting, also on the corners. A 3:1 ratio should be good. 3 strokes on the scalloped side for every 1 stroke on the non scalloped side.
the rest of the internet says if you touch the flat side of the blade to a sharpening stone it must be flat, or else you end up putting a really tiny micro-bevel on the blade, causing the knife to perform differently.


Chisel Ground Edges

Sharpening chisel-ground or single-bevel knives is not tricky. You simply match the bevel angle and sharpen as usual – but only on the beveled side. When you raise a burr, grind it off by laying the flat side of the knife perfectly flat against your stone and swipe the burr off. It only takes a couple of passes. You can do the same thing with a strop. The back side of the knife must be perfectly flat or you’ll round your edge. All you want to do is grind off the burr.




is this something I need to worry about?

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Postby Blerv » Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:12 pm

Typically the definition of chisel grind indicates the primary bevel, not the secondary bevel. If this was the case one side of your hawkbill would be completely flat, the other ground appropriately.

It's going to be difficult bordering on impossible to to sharpen your knife without putting a mild microbevel on it due to the hollow-grind. While some might disagree I think the more important thing is to control how much angle you are putting on it and use very light strokes. Focus on getting it sharp and getting rid of the burr.

For me I mostly work on getting serrated knives functionally sharp. A couple passes on each tooth then a few passes on the back as Chuck mentioned. Geometry will keep the knife cutting long before most plain edges would be deemed "dull".
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Postby Pete1977 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:47 pm

you're overcomplicating sharpening your crossbill....putting a microbevel on the flat side won't affect cutting performance but will make the plain edge portion sturdier. if you're worried about it you can do as suggested above and do one side on the 40 degree setting then knock the burr off with a few passes on the fine stones on the 30 degree setting for the other (non-ground) side.

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Postby f15k13 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:53 pm

after attempting to sharpen the ground side at 40°, using a marker to see where I was sharpening, I'm not hitting the sharp edge at all, just the corners

should I use the sharpmaker to cut off the angles, I think that is called a back bevel?

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Postby GoodEyeSniper » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:15 pm

Blerv wrote:Typically the definition of chisel grind indicates the primary bevel, not the secondary bevel. If this was the case one side of your hawkbill would be completely flat, the other ground appropriately.

It's going to be difficult bordering on impossible to to sharpen your knife without putting a mild microbevel on it due to the hollow-grind. While some might disagree I think the more important thing is to control how much angle you are putting on it and use very light strokes. Focus on getting it sharp and getting rid of the burr.

For me I mostly work on getting serrated knives functionally sharp. A couple passes on each tooth then a few passes on the back as Chuck mentioned. Geometry will keep the knife cutting long before most plain edges would be deemed "dull".
I believe Emerson talks about the difference between the chisel GRIND and the chisel EDGE. What OP mentioned would be a chisel edge. And I agree, a microbevel forming should not hurt it at all. Think about it, most people use somewhere around a forty degree edge. The only thing I could see it really "hurting" would be if you were doing very fine woodwork and you needed that specific angle that the chisel edge allows. But then, you probably wouldn't have a combo edge :P
f15k13 wrote:after attempting to sharpen the ground side at 40°, using a marker to see where I was sharpening, I'm not hitting the sharp edge at all, just the corners

should I use the sharpmaker to cut off the angles, I think that is called a back bevel?
Sounds like it was just ground a bit too obtuse. You can keep working at it with the sharpmaker and it should eventually get to the right angle, unfortunately the stones are not really meant for much metal removal and this could take awhile. Likewise you could just adjust the angle of the blade as you sharpen to get it to match that bevel. Considering it's ground on one side the overall edge angle is still probably more acute than normal knives, even if the ground edge seems to be at a higher angle.

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Postby ghostrider » Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:27 pm

That's normal for a CE Crossbill.
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Postby ghostrider » Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:12 pm

I know I'm a little late to the party, but I'll provide some things.

First, that's normal for a CE Crossbill, or any of the other SE/PE Spyderco's I've seen.

Second. When I first got my Crossbill back in 2005, I contacted the company because of the difficulty of sharpening such a hard steel (actually timed myself at 12 hours on the diamond rods before giving up). Spyderco told me to send it back, and when they returned it to me, they had reground the PE section of the CE blade so that it was now a V-grind. I wasn't going to regrind it just to put the chisel grind back on, so I've been using it like that ever since. I've carried that knife more than any other knife in my collection, and that's saying a lot since I own a Microtec and a Emerson SOFCK (if the Crossbill isn't carried, then chances are I just need to sharpen it).

My advice. Stop worrying about the small stuff and just make it sharp. Then use it. That's the only way your'er going to know what angle you like it at. Personally, I find it performed well enough with a 30* angle.
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