Humane Byrd manufacture?

Discuss Spyderco's byrd knives.
Meadowlark
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Humane Byrd manufacture?

#1

Post by Meadowlark »

Recently ordered my first Byrd and just read U.S. Congress has passed the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act.

Does Spyderco know where (and by whom) all Chinese components of their Byrd and other Chinese lines are manufactured, assembled and shipped?

Can we purchase these lines with knowledgeable assurance they've not been produced with slave labor?

I'm concerned with how an upstanding U.S. company like Spyderco deals within a communist and totalitarian/genocidal police state. I can't justify these purchases if there's any chance slaves had some hand in production and will return Byrd if assurances aren't possible.

If this question is in poor taste I apologize in advance but it's important to me and I should've asked sooner.
T.J.
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Re: Humane Byrd manufacture?

#2

Post by T.J. »

Are you going to return the device that you typed that post with?
Meadowlark
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Re: Humane Byrd manufacture?

#3

Post by Meadowlark »

Though I can't be sure about every component within it my device software - along with a cursory internet search - claims Vietnam as country of manufacture/origin.
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RustyIron
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Re: Humane Byrd manufacture?

#4

Post by RustyIron »

Just buy a knife made in Colorado, and then you'll be a little more certain. If the employees at the factory in Golden are indeed slaves, at least they look happy, so we can assume they're housed and well fed.
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sal
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Re: Humane Byrd manufacture?

#5

Post by sal »

Hi Meadowlark,

Interesting question.

I guess the first thing I should say, don't believe everything hear. I have found that when I bother to investigate in more depth, that most things may be different than they appear. Even with our politicians and news sources.

We have been to all of the factories that we work with and have developed a good relationship with them, over the past 20 years. Just as we have with every vendor we work with in every country in which we work. I/We have not seen anything that resembles slavery. We have seen much of China as much of the travel is via auto. in general, much is modern. It is a large country and I'm sure there are remote areas that would use simpler standards. But that is common all over. As an American, I have different values and don't know if I would like to live as they due given the government control, but it seems to work for them. We've not yet created/invented Utopia, but I'm glad many of us are always trying to do better. But I believe that people are people, and the similarities between different peoples are much greater than any differences. Trust, honesty and fairness is usually valued and appreciated.

We would never support what we all know is not good. As you spend more time here, you will find that many here, are, as you are, sensitive folks.

sal
resonanzmacher
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Re: Humane Byrd manufacture?

#6

Post by resonanzmacher »

OP, a fast reframe might help here. You are asking whether the Chinese, who are putting Uighur Muslims in 'reeducation' camps over fears that they might otherwise engage in violent jihad against the state, are then putting them to work as slave laborers in factories that make knives that Chinese laws say are too dangerous to put in the hands of Chinese citizens.

This proposition is internally inconsistent.

Also it's worth pointing out that Byrds are made in a densely populated location with tons of available wage labor, on the other side of China from Xinjiang. Taking political prisoners from a camp in Xinjiang and trucking them all the way across China to work in a place they aren't particularly needed but they might be able to slip away and mix in with the local non radicalized population... is foolish by their own lights and it's definitely not how the Chinese conduct their affairs.

BTW I've got no interest in defending the actions of the Chinese state but you might find it interesting to research how much prison labor the US employs these days compared to the Chinese. Just might surprise you how big that industry has become in the last 20 years. I get the sense it's not going to jibe with the narrative you've been listening to.
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Re: Humane Byrd manufacture?

#7

Post by ChrisinHove »

To be fair, forced labour is probably more common (or least uncommon?) in the extraction or manufacture of raw materials, rather than manufacturing of precision items.

This question boils down to “is it better to engage with authoritarian regimes or to disengage?”

Answers below, please, because I have no idea.
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Re: Humane Byrd manufacture?

#8

Post by TomAiello »

ChrisinHove wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:08 am
This question boils down to “is it better to engage with authoritarian regimes or to disengage?”
"The opposite of war isn't peace, it's trade.'
- Sal Glesser
Meadowlark
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Re: Humane Byrd manufacture?

#9

Post by Meadowlark »

Trade with China seems to be coming at a terrifyingly high human cost if these reports, and hundreds more from outlets around the world, are accurate.

https://andmagazine.com/talk/2020/07/20 ... aveowners/

I'm not sure what specific narrative has misled me but I'm not sold on the idea that the Uyghurs are the Asian equivalent of radical Muslim Saudi's endlessly plotting to fly airliners into Beijing skyscrapers who simply cannot be allowed any sovereignty nor am I convinced that these enslaved Uyghurs are now somehow simply content with their newfound chains.

Never did I assume Spyderco employed this forced labor rather I asked for clarification on Spyderco's Chinese supply channels being free from it.

I pray I'm wrong - as well as too sensitive - and that you're all correct in claiming the underlying truths of these "narratives" as "different than they appear".
resonanzmacher
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Re: Humane Byrd manufacture?

#10

Post by resonanzmacher »

Meadowlark wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:10 pm
Trade with China seems to be coming at a terrifyingly high human cost if these reports, and hundreds more from outlets around the world, are accurate.

https://andmagazine.com/talk/2020/07/20 ... aveowners/

I'm not sure what specific narrative has misled me but I'm not sold on the idea that the Uyghurs are the Asian equivalent of radical Muslim Saudi's endlessly plotting to fly airliners into Beijing skyscrapers who simply cannot be allowed any sovereignty nor am I convinced that these enslaved Uyghurs are now somehow simply content with their newfound chains.

Never did I assume Spyderco employed this forced labor rather I asked for clarification on Spyderco's Chinese supply channels being free from it.

I pray I'm wrong - as well as too sensitive - and that you're all correct in claiming the underlying truths of these "narratives" as "different than they appear".
Your article describes prison labor. Again, do you have any idea at all how prevalent prison labor is in the US? Because I absolutely guarantee that for every unsourced, noname website 'report' that talks about Chinese use of prison labor, I can find you one describing how it's used in the US, from a vetted and known source to boot. For starters: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/884989263

There's two things you need to understand. The first is, if you're worried about Chinese prison labor but you're fine with how it's practiced in the US, we're past the point where you're just reading messed up narratives and we're deep into double standards then. The second is that it would literally be as easy or easier for Spyderco's US operations to make use of it in the US than Spyderco's operations in China. And yet you're only worried about it happening in China. This may be why people are telling you to examine the narratives you've been consuming.

You may be tempted to retort that the two prison systems are different and thus incomparable but I would warn you in advance, you had best have done every bit of your homework on the issue before you try saying such a thing. Because I've done that homework and I'm here to tell you that the discussion will no more go in your favor than this one has.

My one last suggestion is that you start leaving the word 'genocide' out of your mouth when discussing this issue unless you're prepared to show proof that it's taking place. Genocide is a word with a very clear meaning and every time you repeat it you are being used like a tool.
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RustyIron
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Re: Humane Byrd manufacture?

#11

Post by RustyIron »

resonanzmacher wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:50 pm
do you have any idea at all how prevalent prison labor is in the US?

Probably not as much as you. Here are two instances with which I'm a little familiar, and which I fully support.

My first awareness prison labor was when Bill Harrah was using prisoners to restore automobiles back in the 70's. When the prisoners were released, they had jobs at his facility. Win-Win.

Currently I support a school that takes in troubled kids. Rather than send them to a juvenile detention facility, the kids live at the school, learn a trade, work, and complete their schooling. When they graduate from school, they get real jobs doing real things. Recidivism is lower than other programs, success is greater than other programs. Win-Win.

So maybe... just maybe... we need more work programs in our prisons, so people can learn trades that are marketable upon their release. Prison labor is a good thing, right?

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Re: Humane Byrd manufacture?

#12

Post by TomAiello »

Guys, we're pretty far off topic, aren't we?
Meadowlark
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Re: Humane Byrd manufacture?

#13

Post by Meadowlark »

Hi resonanzmacher,

My retort:

You're insisting ~1M Uyghur (male and female) prisoners are: living in penal prisons, that they are all legitimate penal prisoners and are, each one of them, doing time for serious crimes they've committed against the CCP for which they've been reasonably tried and sentenced. Again, it's possible my readings on the matter are all wrong but the possibility of this seems, at best, remote.

Further, your straw man insistence on the equal depravity of U.S. prison labor has exactly nothing to do with my question. I know nothing of forced U.S. prison labor but I'm comfortable in assuming Spyderco doesn't employ U.S. prisoners in their manufacturing; therefore, the ethics of U.S. prison labor, and my knowledge/moral judgements regarding it, have absolutely nothing to do with the very limited scope of my question.

Now, as far as genocide, (which I stated once in OP when broadly describing the CCP) the claimed mass sterilizations and forced abortions of the Uyghurs - if true - are sufficient to consider the Chinese treatment of imprisoned Uyghurs as effectively genocidal as the CCP is attempting to forceably limit a selected ethnic population the chance to perpetuate.

For someone who has "no interest in defending the actions of the Chinese (communist party)" I'd say that dispenses with all your, uh, defenses, comrade.

At any rate, all I asked for (from Spyderco management) was clarification on their sensitive Chinese/CCP regulated labor and supply chains.

I don't want to veer from my very specific question and since Mr. Glesser has, evidently, addressed it to the best of his ability, I will no longer post to this thread.
Last edited by Meadowlark on Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Bloke
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Re: Humane Byrd manufacture?

#14

Post by Bloke »

ChrisinHove wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:08 am
Answers below, please, because I have no idea.
G’day ole China, been a while and I hope all’s well over there, but hard to know which way to jump sometimes, ay?

And for what it’s worth, deep down I knew no birds were being harmed in the manufacture of any Spyder products.

Mr Glesser has never struck me as the type of person who goes around picking fights with birds or Chinamen and treating them inhumanly. Unless of course he was attacked by say, a particularly malicious murder of crows or our stupid magpies who try to peck your eyes out. In such a case he’d be compelled to defend himself and in the process if birds were indeed treated in an inhumane manner, so be it. Not like he started it, ay?

Either ways, birds are difficult opponents at the best of times and depending on the situation, I feel he’d be well justified and well within his rights to stab a few in an attempt to frighten the others off ... not as though he doesn’t carry a knife, ay?

You’d only hope he wasn’t unfortunate enough to only be carrying a Ladybug or similar on the day, a knife which would most certainly lack the penetrative properties required to reach the vital organs of a bird the size of a crow in order to effect an instant kill.

Chris, in all honesty, at the end of the day and all things being equally I think he’d be well within his rights to shoot the bloody lot but that in itself poses it own problems.

As we all know birds travel in flocks of many. Our budgerigars for example, travel in flocks of tens of thousands at different times ... only plus there is, they’re much smaller than crows so a Ladybug should see him right, though I’m tipping he’d be plumb tuckered after stabbing upwards of 100,000 bloody budgies with a Ladybug and he may need to have a little lay down afterwards.

Imagine for a minute how many times he’d need to touch up. How many budgies could you stab with even say an S110V Ladybug before it needed touching up, 10,000?

Anyhow, they’d be hard to shoot too cause they’re so small and fast, plus I don’t think even MacLaren has a 100,000 shot magazine but I couldn’t say for certain. I doubt Mr Glesser would have one.

Moral of the story, I reckon, if a flock of birds call you nasty names in a dark lane pretend you didn’t hear them and just walk away.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yvtWswhO3Hk
Last edited by Bloke on Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.
A day without laughter is a day wasted. ~ Charlie Chaplin
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sal
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Re: Humane Byrd manufacture?

#15

Post by sal »

Hey Rusty Iron,

Goodonya for the school. I'd like to know more about it. You can email me at Sglesser@spyderco.com.

Hi Meadowlark,

What you need to know is that we at Spyderco, always do the right thing for the right reasons.

Now, best to avoid the politics. We try not to do that here. Thanx much for your kind understanding.

sal
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Re: Humane Byrd manufacture?

#16

Post by resonanzmacher »

Meadowlark wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 2:44 pm
Hi resonanzmacher,

My retort:

You seem to insist ~1M Uyghur (male and female) prisoners are: living in penal prisons, that they are all legitimate penal prisoners and are, each one of them, doing time for serious crimes they've committed against the CCP for which they've been reasonably tried and sentenced. Again, it's possible my readings on the matter are all wrong but the possibility of this seems, at best, remote.

Further, your straw man insistence on the equal depravity of U.S. prison labor has exactly nothing to do with my question. I know nothing of forced U.S. prison labor but I'm comfortable in assuming Spyderco doesn't employ U.S. prisoners in their manufacturing; therefore, the ethics of U.S. prison labor, and my knowledge/moral judgements regarding it, have absolutely nothing to do with the very limited scope of my question.

Now, as far as genocide, (which I stated once in OP when broadly describing the CCP) the claimed mass sterilizations and forced abortions of the Uyghurs - if true - are sufficient to consider the Chinese treatment of imprisoned Uyghurs as effectively genocidal as the CCP is attempting to forceably limit a selected ethnic population the chance to perpetuate.

I'd say that dispenses with both of your, uh, arguments, comrade.

At any rate, all I asked for (from Spyderco management) was clarification on their sensitive Chinese/CCP regulated labor and supply chains.

I don't want to veer from my very specific question and since Mr. Glesser has, evidently, addressed it to the best of his ability, I will no longer post to this thread.
hey, look at the true colors!

I think the Uighur are political prisoners, as I originally stated. I'm not in the business of apologizing for autocratic governments. Then again, we have prisons full of people who did nothing worse than get caught with a bag of weed. No doubt for you that's enough for them to be put to work fighting wildfire in California for pocket change, but illustrating that was sort of the point I was making even if it doesn't register with you.

I also need you to look up what 'straw man' actually means, because you're using it incorrectly. The name of the logical fallacy you were probably thinking of, amusingly enough, is 'red herring', though in this instance the point was completely germane, you just didn't understand that. Pointing out that you're spreading fear uncertainty and doubt over Chinese forced labor but simultaneously waving a hand at our own because it must be OK is the simple act of demonstrating what's known as the good old 'double standard'.

I could go on with the logical fallacy analysis -- for instance, calling me 'Comrade' in this instance registers as an argumentum ad hominem, traditionally the refuge of the angry man embarrassed by their own logical inconsistencies. And I could go on a tear regarding what 'genocide' does and does not mean and whether 'I read something scary online' is the same thing as having evidence that genocide is taking place, and how acts you are alleging to be taking place in China have been documented as taking place in our own US facilities down at the border -- but that's not really what any of us are here for, and as noted by others, it's pretty far afield of the original topic. And it is indeed beginning to smack of politics. So out of respect to the better angels of our nature, beleaguered and overburdened as they are, I'm content to leave things where they are.
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sal
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Re: Humane Byrd manufacture?

#17

Post by sal »

Hi Res,

No more politics, please. I know,I know, I too am a Political Junky, but we don't do it here on this knife forum. Thanx much.

sal
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ChrisinHove
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Re: Humane Byrd manufacture?

#18

Post by ChrisinHove »

Bloke wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:03 pm
ChrisinHove wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:08 am
Answers below, please, because I have no idea.
G’day ole China, been a while and I hope all’s well over there, but hard to know which way to jump sometimes, ay?

And for what it’s worth, deep down I knew no birds were being harmed in the manufacture of any Spyder products.

Mr Glesser has never struck me as the type of person who goes around picking fights with birds or Chinamen and treating them inhumanly. Unless of course he was attacked by say, a particularly malicious murder of crows or our stupid magpies who try to peck your eyes out. In such a case he’d be compelled to defend himself and in the process if birds were indeed treated in an inhumane manner, so be it. Not like he started it, ay?

Either ways, birds are difficult opponents at the best of times and depending on the situation, I feel he’d be well justified and well within his rights to stab a few in an attempt to frighten the others off ... not as though he doesn’t carry a knife, ay?

You’d only hope he wasn’t unfortunate enough to only be carrying a Ladybug or similar on the day, a knife which would most certainly lack the penetrative properties required to reach the vital organs of a bird the size of a crow in order to effect an instant kill.

Chris, in all honesty, at the end of the day and all things being equally I think he’d be well within his rights to shoot the bloody lot but that in itself poses it own problems.

As we all know birds travel in flocks of many. Our budgerigars for example, travel in flocks of tens of thousands at different times ... only plus there is, they’re much smaller than crows so a Ladybug should see him right, though I’m tipping he’d be plumb tuckered after stabbing upwards of 100,000 bloody budgies with a Ladybug and he may need to have a little lay down afterwards.

Imagine for a minute how many times he’d need to touch up. How many budgies could you stab with even say an S110V Ladybug before it needed touching up, 10,000?

Anyhow, they’d be hard to shoot too cause they’re so small and fast, plus I don’t think even MacLaren has a 100,000 shot magazine but I couldn’t say for certain. I doubt Mr Glesser would have one.

Moral of the story, I reckon, if a flock of birds call you nasty names in a dark lane pretend you didn’t hear them and just walk away.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yvtWswhO3Hk
Hahaha! Good to see you here again, mate!

The trouble is, talk is cheep…
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Re: Humane Byrd manufacture?

#19

Post by apollo »

Delete post did not see how long the topic was dead.
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