MILITARY KNIFE IMPROVEMENTS
MILITARY KNIFE IMPROVEMENTS
I know that things need improvements from time to time but what was wrong with the old ones? I have three Militarys. One with the serrated blade with the old style clip and two plain blade ones with the clip that encircles the pivot screw. These have never been used. Now the new and improved ones are out. Are they really improved or is this a way to get people like me to spring for a new one. Sometimes I wonder if the improvements are really worthwhile or not. Many people will run out and buy the "New and Improved One" when they have a perfectly good one already. What are the thoughts of others on this board? Sorta like computers. Buy the latest and best and 1 month after you get it home it on it's way to being outdated. Really now?
Hi MePlat. Welcome to the Spyderco forum.
Our purpose in improvements to a model are to refine and create a better, safer, more functional tool. When we learn a better process or customers point out potential improvements, these are added.
We like to think of it more as "evolution" of a pattern. If you are not using the old knife, a new one will serve no purpose.
Most of the refinements are small, but serve a function. occassionally, we make a larger improvememnt.
Industrially, it would be called CQI or "Constant Quality Improvement".
When we want to create the "newest, latest and greatest", we design a totally new patttern like the ATR, Salsa, Temperance or Meerkat.
sal
Our purpose in improvements to a model are to refine and create a better, safer, more functional tool. When we learn a better process or customers point out potential improvements, these are added.
We like to think of it more as "evolution" of a pattern. If you are not using the old knife, a new one will serve no purpose.
Most of the refinements are small, but serve a function. occassionally, we make a larger improvememnt.
Industrially, it would be called CQI or "Constant Quality Improvement".
When we want to create the "newest, latest and greatest", we design a totally new patttern like the ATR, Salsa, Temperance or Meerkat.
sal
Sal,
Awhile back you wrote in a thread on bladeforums about the new Military versions that possess the bold, black lettering cut by the new laser process. You alluded to a knife with tighter tolerances that was "safer". Can you be more specific about these particular improvements? If not, that's cool.
I am interested in these details, as I plan to add a serrated Military to my group of Spydies to complement my plain edged one. I wonder whether to look for a new one or another like the (diamond cut lettering) one I have now. I will make this decision based to some extent upon what I can find out about the newest versions. I'll likely choose one of these anyway, as then it will be different than the one I already own.
In another thread recently posted here, I mentioned to this group about how I had hefted one of the newest models and felt it seemed even smoother than the one I currently own, which I could scarely believe. The one I have is VERY smooth. I did notice the finish on the liner lock lever is now a sort of grey matte compared to the past, polished one.
Thanks, Jeff.
Edited by - Jeff/1911 on 6/17/2001 1:12:48 AM
Awhile back you wrote in a thread on bladeforums about the new Military versions that possess the bold, black lettering cut by the new laser process. You alluded to a knife with tighter tolerances that was "safer". Can you be more specific about these particular improvements? If not, that's cool.
I am interested in these details, as I plan to add a serrated Military to my group of Spydies to complement my plain edged one. I wonder whether to look for a new one or another like the (diamond cut lettering) one I have now. I will make this decision based to some extent upon what I can find out about the newest versions. I'll likely choose one of these anyway, as then it will be different than the one I already own.
In another thread recently posted here, I mentioned to this group about how I had hefted one of the newest models and felt it seemed even smoother than the one I currently own, which I could scarely believe. The one I have is VERY smooth. I did notice the finish on the liner lock lever is now a sort of grey matte compared to the past, polished one.
Thanks, Jeff.
Edited by - Jeff/1911 on 6/17/2001 1:12:48 AM
Hi Jeff. As I rememeber, there were a few refinements that occured about the same time as the engraving change.
We went to the arc ramp on the tang.
We changed some of the machining methods which tightened up the tolerance.
We changed the method of texture of the G10.
It was about that time we went to the black clip.
We stopped polishing the lock spring (put that expense into other areas).
BTW, we also sent our diamond engraver over to SFO and replaced it with a laser engraver in the factory. The laser is faster and more accurate.
The change of the engraving was simpy because I didn't like the original engraving which I perceived as "too ornate & flowery" for a workhorse like the Military. My fault, for those of you that prefered the old engraving.
sal
We went to the arc ramp on the tang.
We changed some of the machining methods which tightened up the tolerance.
We changed the method of texture of the G10.
It was about that time we went to the black clip.
We stopped polishing the lock spring (put that expense into other areas).
BTW, we also sent our diamond engraver over to SFO and replaced it with a laser engraver in the factory. The laser is faster and more accurate.
The change of the engraving was simpy because I didn't like the original engraving which I perceived as "too ornate & flowery" for a workhorse like the Military. My fault, for those of you that prefered the old engraving.
sal
Sal,
Thank you for the detailed description of recent changes to the Military. This is most helpful to me.
At first I didn't like the new lettering as much either, but now that I've gotten used to it I tend to agree that it looks somewhat more "down to business". I still love the old style engraving, and so I think that I will want to get a serrated, black-lettered Military to go with my more ornate plain edge. I'll probably use the serrated model for tougher jobs, and have the fun of owning both styles in my collection for comparison.
Thanks again for your response. Jeff/1911.
Thank you for the detailed description of recent changes to the Military. This is most helpful to me.
At first I didn't like the new lettering as much either, but now that I've gotten used to it I tend to agree that it looks somewhat more "down to business". I still love the old style engraving, and so I think that I will want to get a serrated, black-lettered Military to go with my more ornate plain edge. I'll probably use the serrated model for tougher jobs, and have the fun of owning both styles in my collection for comparison.
Thanks again for your response. Jeff/1911.
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sam the man..
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Well now I am planning to buy 2 of the Chinooks. Are they going to be outdated shortly with some improvements? If they are I'll just wait till the improvements are out and then I will buy them. Let me know before I drop the dough. If there are any improvements soon what are they so I will know what to look for.
Hi MePlat. Yes, there are improvements scheduled for the Chinook, but no time line on when.
MePlat, nothing stays the same for very long. Computers, cars, knives, clothing, etc.
It's called "progress". "One cannot step into the same river twice".
If you have interest in purchasing designs that will not change, perhaps you should consider discontinued models. Many are collectable and are not likely to change.
Any of Spyderco's models that remain in the line will more than likely undergo some type of refinement. As time goes on and we learn more about each model, we make the changes.
This is done for your benefit and safety, not to cause one to purchase more of the same model.
I'm getting ready to trade in my truck for a newer more refined model. That's the nature of industry. It's still a good truck, but it has lotsa miles and a newer, more evolved model is available.
sal
MePlat, nothing stays the same for very long. Computers, cars, knives, clothing, etc.
It's called "progress". "One cannot step into the same river twice".
If you have interest in purchasing designs that will not change, perhaps you should consider discontinued models. Many are collectable and are not likely to change.
Any of Spyderco's models that remain in the line will more than likely undergo some type of refinement. As time goes on and we learn more about each model, we make the changes.
This is done for your benefit and safety, not to cause one to purchase more of the same model.
I'm getting ready to trade in my truck for a newer more refined model. That's the nature of industry. It's still a good truck, but it has lotsa miles and a newer, more evolved model is available.
sal
Hi Sal and all. I started this post just to get people to think about things. Sure things never stay the same. Just look at a picture of yourself made 20 years ago and then take a look in the mirror. A shock to most of us that do that. But when a product is new and improved we probaly should look at what we are saying. Are we doing it for safety if yes does that mean that the older design was unsafe? How many people were injured by the old design or by their own carelessness which we have no control over? Trying to make an idiot proof knife? Tight tolerances? Couldn't that have been done on the first go around with the sophisticated machinery we have today? Lock strenght; the same question. When we have a knife as good as Spyderco which I am a BIG BIG BIG fan of what improvements do we really need unless someone dropped the ball in releasing the knife prematurely? Probaly at some distant time in the future improvements could be possibly made if it is really an improvement that really proved useful not just a technical improvement. Just because something is a technical improvement does not mean it is a tachtical [sp] improvement. How many Military knives lopped off the finger of their user? How many slammed shut on their user? How many had their blades broken? How many were sloppy? I'll bet if these things happened it was due to abuse not the knifes fault and how to you build a knife to avoid the ocassionally irresponsible knife user or nut? Sure it could be done in a knife that probaly weighs a couple pounds.. but? Just something to think about. Were the improved knives bad to begin with? Put on the market to early? Used by a person that could tear up an anvil with a tack hammer? BTW I carry an Endura. Really love it and when I get the Chnooks I will swithch over to it full time irregardless of the people that have Knife phobia. Have a good day and lets keep the thought in mind I am going to make a knife that will endure because I made the improvements it needs before it was put on market.
Meplat,
Are you suggesting that perhaps Sal and Co. should not make public the information regarding ongoing improvements to their model lines? If so, that's fine. An interesting perspective, I suppose. I don't agree, but that's your opinion.
Surely though, you do not suggest that a company as obviously concerned with excellence and customer satisfaction as Spyderco clearly is, can or should "stand still". If that's what you're saying, you're talking about the wrong company, no question about that.
One of the greatest things about this company to me, is their willingness and committment to ongoing improvements to their product lines. A good portion of the input for these improvements appear to come from us, the customer and I like that a lot.
By the way; Sal's comments about design changes to the "new" Military that I referred to earlier were part of an answer to a direct question from one of us about that model. His was a prompt, informative response that was most appreciated.
Jeff/1911.
Are you suggesting that perhaps Sal and Co. should not make public the information regarding ongoing improvements to their model lines? If so, that's fine. An interesting perspective, I suppose. I don't agree, but that's your opinion.
Surely though, you do not suggest that a company as obviously concerned with excellence and customer satisfaction as Spyderco clearly is, can or should "stand still". If that's what you're saying, you're talking about the wrong company, no question about that.
One of the greatest things about this company to me, is their willingness and committment to ongoing improvements to their product lines. A good portion of the input for these improvements appear to come from us, the customer and I like that a lot.
By the way; Sal's comments about design changes to the "new" Military that I referred to earlier were part of an answer to a direct question from one of us about that model. His was a prompt, informative response that was most appreciated.
Jeff/1911.
Jeff/1911: I went back and reread my post and I didn't see anywhere I said that improverments should not be made if really needed or that Sal or anyone else should be closed mouthed about if they were made. I said I brought this up for us to think about. That is all. I am not against improvements at all. Just little dinky things that really amount to nothing. Really now as good as Spydercos are what real improvement do they need? I'm sure someone will tell me some but what is that really saying about Spyderco? The ones I've seen really could not be improved on much at all except for some small improvement and I'm not sure they need that. One improvement they made that was an "Improvement" that was worthwhile was the metal clip that is switchable. That is the major one I can think of now.
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vampyrewolf
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You must apprecaite improvements for the better of the ELUs. Some companies do this without any user input, and the other, more respected ones, actaully listen to ELUs.
Sal normally does what we want. Unless it's too outlandish. I asked for a custom merlin, but it's not possible to get 50/50. Most things we ask for are though.
Better, more advanced, locks
Small changes to size
Different colors, and materials
Sal does well, and we should be happy for our input counting for something. He is even open sharing upgrades with us, keeping us up to date.
We all start with 10 fingers. Those with Spydies have 9 to spare, Still need a thumb. Good thing I still have 8 to spare...
Sal normally does what we want. Unless it's too outlandish. I asked for a custom merlin, but it's not possible to get 50/50. Most things we ask for are though.
Better, more advanced, locks
Small changes to size
Different colors, and materials
Sal does well, and we should be happy for our input counting for something. He is even open sharing upgrades with us, keeping us up to date.
We all start with 10 fingers. Those with Spydies have 9 to spare, Still need a thumb. Good thing I still have 8 to spare...
Hi MePlat, methinks I may be a bit confused.
Are you suggesting that a mfg company not bother with minor improvements, but only major ones?
Are you suggesting that products should have been "made right" (perfect) the first time so they don't need improvement?
Are you suggesting that because a mfg company is able to improve something through materials or technology or plain ol' "learnin", that our original models were unsafe?
I guess I'm not sure where you're coming from. I'm trying though.
Cars can stop in less distance due to new "improvements" in materials & technology than 10 years ago.
Lives can be saved now that may have perished before the knowledge to save them "evolved".
The well worked fine, but I'd bet you have a faucet.
Our Military Model has an excellent track record for safety and reliability. But if we can "make 'em better", we do. Why do I get the feeling that you believe that is somehow improper?
sal
Are you suggesting that a mfg company not bother with minor improvements, but only major ones?
Are you suggesting that products should have been "made right" (perfect) the first time so they don't need improvement?
Are you suggesting that because a mfg company is able to improve something through materials or technology or plain ol' "learnin", that our original models were unsafe?
I guess I'm not sure where you're coming from. I'm trying though.
Cars can stop in less distance due to new "improvements" in materials & technology than 10 years ago.
Lives can be saved now that may have perished before the knowledge to save them "evolved".
The well worked fine, but I'd bet you have a faucet.
Our Military Model has an excellent track record for safety and reliability. But if we can "make 'em better", we do. Why do I get the feeling that you believe that is somehow improper?
sal
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ftkinney
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i think in some ways i understaned what MePalt is getting at he likes having the 'final" evoltion and that a "better" one wounld come out and make his less than the best he would like to own the best. right before i decided to buy the tim wenger i saw a post mentioning a "wegner II" so i asked when that was coming out if a more evolded wegner came out right before i whent to get mine then may be wait a week see if i liked the new one better, if or when a new one comes out if i like the feel or look of that one better maybe i'll sell or give away my "older one" to a friend or family menber who could use it if i needed or wanted the newer model and didn't what the other sitting in a draw. i support sal making modifications as they come about and there's no way a company can competey test a product the way a thousand users can in a years time. besides a company may wish (the lettering on the military) to do the process in a certain way but the cost is prohibitive many custumers whant the product it sells well is nolonger cost prohibitive to make the tooling investment due to custurmer demand and success of sales. i call this is the "cobra" theory named after carrol shelby the designer of that great race car: as improvents came about they went into the next model.
i think sals suggestion of buying discontinued modes is very intresting: their is no improvents you have the highest evelotion of that style for me that is the "shark" theory for 450 million years sharks have not changed (very much at least) i've had the same pair of red wing boots for 12 years they don't make these any more, their are "better" ones but not these.
but that's enogh about amimals and such.
sal -- out of curiosity wich spyderco(s) changed the least?
FTK
i think sals suggestion of buying discontinued modes is very intresting: their is no improvents you have the highest evelotion of that style for me that is the "shark" theory for 450 million years sharks have not changed (very much at least) i've had the same pair of red wing boots for 12 years they don't make these any more, their are "better" ones but not these.
but that's enogh about amimals and such.
sal -- out of curiosity wich spyderco(s) changed the least?
FTK
Guys come on, lets not let this thread turn nasty (not saying that is has..)
I agree with MePlat to a certain degree, that if the old knife was so good,safe and sharp it comes out as a downer to some to change it so, thats definately not a insult to you Sal, its just that you must understand some of us knife nuts have fallen so in love with various models that seeing it changed is like trying to change something which is ours, which no-one has the right to touch but us.
Now please dont take that the wrong way, its meant just to show how some feel.
Ive never been lucky enough to even hold a Mil, and I want one real bad, which I hope to get soon.
I have grown to love the look of the old model with the liner lock.
Now that the new one is out, even though it may be refined and inproved, that old one still dances in my head.
Im sure MePlat wasnt meaning it in the way you all picked it up, I reckon he meant it in the way I said here.
They all beutifully crafted blades, which took alot of talent, hard work and vision to produce, we are definately not against improvements, be they big or small.
Happy Hunting guys
MaNcEr
It's Time To Kick @$$ 'N Chew Bubble Gum
I agree with MePlat to a certain degree, that if the old knife was so good,safe and sharp it comes out as a downer to some to change it so, thats definately not a insult to you Sal, its just that you must understand some of us knife nuts have fallen so in love with various models that seeing it changed is like trying to change something which is ours, which no-one has the right to touch but us.
Now please dont take that the wrong way, its meant just to show how some feel.
Ive never been lucky enough to even hold a Mil, and I want one real bad, which I hope to get soon.
I have grown to love the look of the old model with the liner lock.
Now that the new one is out, even though it may be refined and inproved, that old one still dances in my head.
Im sure MePlat wasnt meaning it in the way you all picked it up, I reckon he meant it in the way I said here.
They all beutifully crafted blades, which took alot of talent, hard work and vision to produce, we are definately not against improvements, be they big or small.
Happy Hunting guys
MaNcEr
It's Time To Kick @$$ 'N Chew Bubble Gum
I don't think I'm taking it in a negative way. Sorry if it appears that way. I believe it is a valid question, and I take most questions seriously.
In car collecting, there is always a "last, best, right model, right year car". They are much sought after once they are discontinued.
As a mfgr, I am pushing the issue to learn more about the opinions on this issue. Just what would be the best compromise between improvement and stopping improvement? I've have always felt that improvement was best, but perhaps I am wrong in this belief.
sal
In car collecting, there is always a "last, best, right model, right year car". They are much sought after once they are discontinued.
As a mfgr, I am pushing the issue to learn more about the opinions on this issue. Just what would be the best compromise between improvement and stopping improvement? I've have always felt that improvement was best, but perhaps I am wrong in this belief.
sal
Sal,
If you read my previous post you'll clearly understand that I think improvement is always good, and for a company with a reputation like yours; very important.
It doesn't bother me in the slightest that the Military model I own has been improved upon to some degree, it just makes me think "Wow! It was already so good." And, "What a company!" You know, those types of things.
I agree with your previous suggestion about buying discontinued models, for those who simply want the mose highly evolved example of a given model, for collection purposes.
The rest of us should be delighted to know that the current production knife we buy at our local store has all of the latest conceived design improvements incorporated into it's manufacture.
Jeff/1911.
If you read my previous post you'll clearly understand that I think improvement is always good, and for a company with a reputation like yours; very important.
It doesn't bother me in the slightest that the Military model I own has been improved upon to some degree, it just makes me think "Wow! It was already so good." And, "What a company!" You know, those types of things.
I agree with your previous suggestion about buying discontinued models, for those who simply want the mose highly evolved example of a given model, for collection purposes.
The rest of us should be delighted to know that the current production knife we buy at our local store has all of the latest conceived design improvements incorporated into it's manufacture.
Jeff/1911.